WHAT IS THE UPPER LIMIT OF VALUE?

WHAT IS THE UPPER LIMIT OF VALUE ?
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
University of Oxford
Suite 1, Littlegate House
16/17 St. Ebbe’s Street, Oxford OX1 1PT
anders.sandberg@philosophy.ox.ac.ukDavid Manheim
1DaySooner
Delaware, United States,
davidmanheim@gmail.com
January 27, 2021
ABSTRACT
How much value can our decisions create? We argue that unless our current understanding of physics
is wrong in fairly fundamental ways, there exists an upper limit of value relevant to our decisions.
First, due to the speed of light and the deﬁnition and conception of economic growth, the limit to
economic growth is a restrictive one. Additionally, a related far larger but still ﬁnite limit exists for
value in a much broader sense due to the physics of information and the ability of physical beings
to place value on outcomes. We discuss how this argument can handle lexicographic preferences,
probabilities, and the implications for inﬁnite ethics and ethical uncertainty.
Keywords ValuePhysics of Information Ethics
Acknowledgements: We are grateful to the Global Priorities Institute for highlighting these issues and hosting the conference where
this paper was conceived, and to Will MacAskill for the presentation that prompted the paper. Thanks to Hilary Greaves, Toby Ord,
and Anthony DiGiovanni, as well as to Adam Brown, Evan Ryan Gunter, and Scott Aaronson, for feedback on the philosophy and
the physics, respectively. David Manheim also thanks the late George Koleszarik for initially pointing out Wei Dai’s related work in
2015, and an early discussion of related issues with Scott Garrabrant and others on asymptotic logical uncertainty, both of which
informed much of his thinking in conceiving the paper. Thanks to Roman Yampolskiy for providing a quote for the paper. Finally,
thanks to Selina Schlechter-Komparativ and Eli G. for proofreading and editing assistance.
1 Introduction
The future of humanity contains seemingly limitless possibility, with implications for the value of our choices in the
short term. Ethics discusses those choices, and for consequentialists in particular, inﬁnities have worrying ethical
implications. Bostrom [ 1] and others have asked questions, for example, about how aggregative consequentialist
theories can deal with inﬁnities. Others have expanded the questions still further, including measure problems in
cosmology, and related issues in inﬁnite computable or even noncomputable universes in a multiverse.
In this paper, we will argue that "limitless" and "inﬁnite" when used to describe value or the moral importance of our
decisions can only be hyperbolic, rather than exact descriptions. Our physical universe is bounded, both physically1
and in terms of possibility. Furthermore, this ﬁnite limit is true both in the near term, and in the indeﬁnite future. To
discuss this, we restrict ourselves to a relatively prosaic setting, and for at least this paper, we restrict our interests to a
single universe that obeys the laws of physics as currently (partially) understood. In this understanding, the light-speed
The authors contributed equally in the conception and preparation of the paper.
1While cosmology debates some aspects of whether the universe is ﬁnite, as we note in the appendix, the various suggested
possibilities still admit that the reachable universe is ﬁnite.
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limit is absolute, quantum physics can be interpreted without multiverses2, and thermodynamic limits are unavoidable.
In addition to those assumptions about the universe, we will assume, based on the overwhelming scientiﬁc evidence,
that human brains, and those of other beings with moral opinions and values, perform only within the laws of physics.
Given that, we also assume that values are either objective functions of the physical world, as posited by Moore [ 2], or
are subjective only to the extent that individual physical brains can conceive of them.
Given these fairly wide boundaries, we argue that there are no inﬁnities that must be addressed for ethical decisionmaking.
We do so by establishing concrete bounds on possible sizes of value that can be changed. Even though there are
truly mind-boggling numbers involved, these are ﬁnite numbers which do not admit the class of question Bostrom
and others pose. Given our assumptions, we cannot refute those arguments absolutely, or make the claim that we
should assign no probability to such potential value systems. We will, however, make a strong claim that unless our
understanding of physics is fundamentally ﬂawed in speciﬁc ways, the amount of accessible and achievable value
for any decision-relevant question is necessarily ﬁnite. We feel that the assumptions are likely enough, or can be
modiﬁed to be so, that the argument is strong enough to be considered sufﬁcient for resolving the issues for long term
consequentialist thinking.
Before addressing fundamental issues about the limit of value, we will address the far easier question of whether there is
a limit to economic growth, following and extending Ng’s work [ 3].Based on a few observations about the Milky Way,
we ﬁnd a clear indication that in the short term future of the next 100,000 years, even in the most optimistic case, current
levels of economic growth are incompatible with basic physical limits. This has implications for welfare economics and
social choice explored by Ng [3], as well as for long term expectations about growth discussed by Hanson [4].
We next use that discussion to motivate questions about whether a more general framework for value allows inﬁnities.
After discussing and answering two possible objections to limited value in a ﬁnite universe, we outline additional
physical limitations to both value and valuing. We then conclude that we can assign a theoretical upper bound to
possible value in the physical universe.
2 Economic Growth and Physical Limits
Economic theory, the study of human choices about allocation of scarce resources3, is useful for describing a large
portion of what humans do. This is in large part because it is a positive description, rather than a normative one, and is
local in scope. For example, it does not claim that preferences must be a certain way. Instead, economic theory simply
notes that humans’ values seem to be a certain way. Given some reasonable local assumptions, this can be used to make
falsiﬁable predictions about behavior. Such a theory is by no means universally correct, as noted below, but forms a
more useful predictive theory than most alternatives.
Clearly, the arguments and assumptions do not need to extend indeﬁnitely to be useful. For example, economic
assumptions such as non-satiation (which Mas-Collel [ 6] and others more carefully refer to as local non-satiation) will
obviously fall apart at some point. That is, if blueberries are good, more blueberries are better, but at some point the
volume of blueberries in question leads to absurdities [ 7] and disvalue. Here, we suggest that there are fundamental
reasons to question the application of simple economic thinking about value and growth in value to long-term decisions.
This is important independent of the broader argument about non-inﬁnite value, and also both informs and motivates
that argument.
Economic growth is an increase in the productive capacity of the economy. Economic growth measures the increase
in the ability to produce goods that people derive value from. The above-mentioned locally correct models of human
behavior and interaction lead to a natural conclusion that under some reasonable assumptions about preferences,
economic growth will continue indeﬁnitely. If there is possible value that can be built via investment of physical or
other real resources, humans are motivated to at least attempt to create that value. If growth at some non-nominal rate
continues indeﬁnitely, however, this leads to difﬁcult to physically justify results. For example, at a 2% level of real
growth, the Gross World Product (GWP) would grow to 10860times current levels in 100,000 years. GWP is currently
2This is not a required assumption, though given multiverses, some qualiﬁcations on how moral weight or normalization across
many-worlds is required to ensure values are not all inﬁnite.
3We will not discuss the contentious question of how economics is best deﬁned, a subject of extensive discussion [5].
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around $100 trillionUS
20204, so the total value is $10874dollarsUS
2020. The naive model implies that we can continue to
receive positive returns on investment, and humans will in fact value the resulting achievements or goods to that extent.
Note that this is not an argument about the nominal growth rate, but rather the real growth in value. That is, the US
dollar may not exist in centuries, much less millennia, galactic years, or aeons. Despite this, if humans survive to
continue creating value, the implicit argument of continued growth is that we would ﬁnd things to do that create more
real value in that time.
It is also not an argument that natural limits of the types often invoked in sustainability discussions will necessarily stop
growth [ 9]5. While there are material limits to the amount of stuff that can be acquired (and, as we will argue below,
this does matter for our conclusion) the stuff may be organized into ever better forms. That means that our argument
about "Limits to Growth" is both less immediate, and more fundamental than the ecological limits most extensively
discussed in economics. [10]
2.1 Economists versus Physicists
“Scientists have developed a powerful new weapon that destroys people but leaves buildings
standing — it’s called the 17% interest rate.”"
—Johnny Carson
As Einstein almost certainly did not say, "compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe.” But physicists
are careful to limit their inﬁnities so that they cancel. Economists have fewer problems with inﬁnities, so they have
never needed a similar type of caution6.
On the other hand, if the claim that exponential economic growth at a rate materially above zero can continue indeﬁnitely
is true, it would indeed need to be the most powerful force in the universe, because as we argue, it would need to
overcome some otherwise fundamental physical limits, outlined in the Appendix. This continued growth seems
intuitively very implausible, but intuition can be misleading. Still, as will be discussed in more detail below, there are
fundamental physical limits to how much "stuff" we can get, and how far we can go in a given amount of time.
2.2 Short-term Limits for Humanity
One initial consequence of the fundamental physical limits outlined in the appendix is the short term expansion of
humanity over the next 60-100,000 years. In the best case, humanity expands throughout the galaxy in the coming
millennia, spreading the reach of potential value. Despite expansion, the speed of light limits humanity to the Milky
Way galaxy during this time frame. The Milky Way is 100,000 light-years across, and it would take at least on the
order of that many years to settle it, with 60,000 being a lower limit to get to the far end from Earth7.
4We adopt the convention that the ambiguous use of dollars needs to have units properly noted, as should occur everywhere in
scientiﬁc research for any unit. However, because "dollars" do not have a constant economic value, or even refer to the same currency
across countries, the subscript/superscript notation is used to disambiguate. The notation is adapted from Gwern [8].
5Daly suggests somewhat informally that "the physically growing macro-economy is still limited by its displacement of the ﬁnite
ecosphere," in the context of economic versus "uneconomic" growth that creates "risks of ecological catastrophe that increase with
growthism and technological impatience." In practice, we agree that sustainable development is a reasonable argument to curtail
certain types of economic growth. It seems clear that unsustainable growth which leads to ecological collapse less likely to have
unbounded long term potential than the alternative of short-term environmental protection. However, our argument is somewhat
more fundamental in nature.
6This is not strictly true. Economic endogenous growth models are plagued by ﬁnite-time singularities if the feedback from
knowledge or other factors to themselves is stronger than linear. Demanding that such factors are never negative and always remain
ﬁnite force the model to exhibit exponential growth [ 11]. Others are less concerned about the singularities in the model: "Singularities
are always mathematical idealisations of natural phenomena: they are not present in reality but foreshadow an important transition or
change of regime" [12].
7If we instead consider the short term to stretch slightly longer, we could begin to consider the satellite galaxies to the Milky way,
but this still limits us to smaller galaxies that are almost all within 1 million light-years of Earth. From there, there is a notable gap
of approximately another 1 million light-years to Andromeda, the nearest major galaxy. For that reason, humanity’s potential for
expansion is unfortunately somewhat limited over the next 2 million years.
Thankfully, the medium term future looks rosier, since the entire Laniakea Supercluster is within a quarter billion light-years, and
all of the Pisces–Cetus Supercluster Complex is accessible to humanity within the next billion years.
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The Milky Way local neighborhood masses about 1.5 trillion solar masses (or 31042kilograms) [ 13,14] within a
radius of 652,000 light-years, of which about 6.5% is baryonic matter. There are about 1068cubic centimeters in the
Milky Way galaxy alone (if we consider a sphere of diameter 100,000 ly.) And inside of a currently small portion of the
space and mass, humanity pursues maximizing value. At this point, the question is how much value is possible.
2.3 Bounds on Short-term Economic Value and Growth
"We have always held to the hope, the belief, the conviction that there is a better life, a better
world, beyond the horizon."
—–Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Given the above set of bounds, given speciﬁc ways to calculate value, we can, inter alia , calculate an approximate
maximum to total accessible value, and hence the possible growth in economic value. As discussed in the appendix,
possible information that can be stored is limited by space and mass.
The volume accessible in our 100,000 year time frame allows us 10134bits of theoretically accessible storage. The
10134bits of storage correspond to 210134possible states, and hence the maximum number we could store in the Milky
Way has 310133digits8. However, short of a misaligned AI which wire-heads into storing the largest possible value
in the register containing its value function, it seems unlikely that there is any conception of value that consists solely of
the ability to store massive numbers9
To consider economic return, we need a baseline for what is being invested. As noted above, current GWP is $100
trillionUS
2020/year, which can be viewed as an income stream for humanity. Discounting the income at a generous 2%, we
ﬁnd a net present value of human productivity of $50 quadrillion. Treating the discounted total of human production as
an upper bound on how much we can possibly commit to investing now, we ask: how much value can be created in the
future?
To create a minimum threshold for value, we consider the value of the universe if converted into some currently
expensive substance, say Plutonium-239, which costs around $5.24US
2007 per milligram, [ 15], we ﬁnd that converting the
Milky Way leads to a value of $ 1:51049US
2020. Given our baseline, this is a return on investment of 31032x, which
is a huge return, but discounted over the next 100,000 years, this gives a paltry annual return on investment of 0.075%.
But this minimum is pessimistic — surely we can generate more value than just expensive mass with a service economy
of some sort. If we consider the value of human productivity, we have a conceptually huge possible space of value
that any human can provide to others. Starting with the present levels of productivity, we can very generously assume
each human is able to produce $1 millionUS
2020 of value per year. The average human masses 70 kilograms, and we
unrealistically ignore the requirement for gravity, air, food, and so on, to ﬁnd that the 31042kilograms of mass allows
for41040humans. Assume each creates value, then assume this production starts immediately and accumulates over
the next 100,000 years. This gives an upper bound is that the galaxy could produce $ 41051US
2020 of value in the next
100,000 years, which seems large until we note that it implies an annualized rate of return of 0.08%; far more than our
estimate above, but a tiny rate of return.
If we even more generously assume that not only would humans instantly settle the entire Milky Way and convert
the entire mass into humans, as above, but that they individually annually produce the Earth’s annual Gross World
Product (GWP) today, repeating our earlier assumptions, the rate of return reaches 0.1%. We can go further, and even
more implausibly claim each can produces a googol dollarsUS
2020 of value per year and this accumulates, to reach a 0.3%
8This number is exponentially larger than 10860times current GWP (that has just slightly over 860 digits), but still far smaller
than many celebrated very large numbers in mathematics, such as Graham’s number — which has a number of digits that itself is far
larger than can be stored in those 10134bits of storage.
9It is, of course, possible to store representations of larger numbers, but these are insufﬁcient for value writ large in various ways,
as will be discussed later. For example, ﬂoating point numbers can be extended to represent far larger quantities in a given storage
volume, but they are not closed under subtraction, and in a typical implementation, very large integers are rounded off. That means
that they cannot be used for comparisons where the difference is relatively small. In fact, no encoding scheme using 10134bits can
contain, say, the value 210134+ 1without losing the ability to store the exact value of some smaller integer. While our large-number
storage maximizing AI might be ﬁne turning the universe into storage schemes that allow representing larger numbers, given the
discussion below about value as comparisons, this inability is a fundamental issue for not just economic growth, but value-in-general.
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annual growth rate. And perhaps we were unfairly pessimistic about our time frame for settling the Milky Way, and use
the bare minimum physical limit of 60,000 years — this gives us a still paltry 0.51% rate.
All of this may be argued still to be conservative. Perhaps Hansonian Ems colonize the galaxy[ 16], taking up far less
space, and living faster lives. In the limit, each could constantly be producing things of value for all other Ems to enjoy,
allowing for the growth in value to be far higher. Still, and bounds found for a service economy are a function of space
and mass growth over time. The way in which available mass increases with time is lumpy, based on locations of mass
that are close to our solar system, but is at most similar to the increase in physical space. The lightspeed limitation
means that the amount of "stuff" we can acquire from nature will at most grow as (4c3=3)t3/t310
This leads to an inescapable conclusion, that there is at most a polynomial rate of economic growth in the long-term.
The available space cannot grow as quickly as any exponential function, so growth in value is guaranteed to be lower
than the exponential growth implied by compound interest, at least in the very long term. As the earlier increasingly
implausible assumptions suggest, and the rate of growth limitations make even clearer, postulating greater potential
value still means that high or even steady low rates of growth would not be possible. Using our narrow economic
deﬁnition of value, at some point in the near-term (cosmic) future, economic growth will be sharply limited. To posit
any greater value, we need to consider the question of value much more broadly. Before doing so, we brieﬂy consider a
few implications of the short term conclusions.
2.4 Implications of Short-Term Limits
There are a number of interesting long-term policy implications of the existence of a limit to growth. Critically, many
are related to the (not-quite oxymoronic) most immediate long-termist uncertainties.
2.4.1 Discounting
One set of conclusions relate to discounting of the far future, a topic discussed in varying contexts [ 18]. These
implications of the choice of discounting rate range widely, from decisions about personal donations [ 19], to management
theory [20], to climate policy [21].
Our conclusions about limited growth in the cosmological short term provides a much stronger argument for (very)
low discount rates than much past work, albeit applicable only when considering longer time scales than even most
long-termist policy considers. Applying the conclusions about limited growth to discounting, even over the very-long
term, requires care, since different arguments for discounting exist11[22]. Speciﬁcally, this argument against discounting
applies if long-term discounting is primarily based on an arbitrage or alternative investment arguments, where the
reason to discount later value is because there is an alternative of investing and receiving a larger amount of capital in
the future due to growth. If the argument is based on risk, where the reason to discount future value is because of the
possibility that it will not be realized, our argument seems less relevant, through that of Weitzman [ 23], which argues
for low discounts by reasoning over different possible futures, is correspondingly strengthened — and applies over the
far shorter term.
2.4.2 Hinge of History
"We live during the hinge of history... If we act wisely in the next few centuries, humanity will
survive its most dangerous and decisive period. Our descendants could, if necessary, go
elsewhere, spreading through this galaxy."
Derek Parﬁt , On What Matters, V olume II
Another set of conclusions that can be found from the sharp limit to near-term economic growth relates to "Hinge
of History," based on a claim by Derek Parﬁt [ 24] about the importance of the near future, which was later put more
10Because of the short time frames and local distances being discussed, this can ignore the expansion of the universe. Over longer
times scales, as we discuss in the appendix, this further limits it to an asymptotically ﬁnite amount if the CDM cosmology is a
correct description [17].
11Note that we do not include equity concerns for discounting [ 21] because we are considering humanity as a whole, though
obviously for policy the equity concerns for discounting can be critical.
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pointedly in the above quote. In general terms, the hinge could relate to the recent economic turbulence introduced by
Appelbaum and Henderson, [ 25], and the short term moral opportunities for equality introduced by Head, [ 26] but is
primarily a long-termist idea [ 27], presaged by Greaves and MacAskill, of "inﬂuencing the choice among non-extinction
attractor states" over the entirety of the future. [ 28] MacAskill suggests two worldviews that imply the present is such a
hinge, while our exploration implies a third — though unlike those worldviews, our argument does not suggest the
hinge is imminent.
The argument is that while there is no guarantee that the upper-bound of long-term value will be reached, or even
approached, the current exponential economic growth cannot be maintained. The alternative hypothesis is that even
though the world is changing and increasing in value ever more quickly, it will continue to do so indeﬁnitely. Instead,
the transition from exponential to polynomial economic growth would imply that a hinge-of-history of a sort must exist,
though it may not be in the near future or related to the current slowing of growth, since the necessary timing depends
heavily on questions of when the limit will be reached.
This argument for a hinge-of-history rests on the plausible, but not certain, claim that choosing the type of economic
growth in the exponential growth phase signiﬁcantly changes the course of civilization in a way that will not occur
afterwards. The weakness in this argument is that at some point after the end of explosive growth, a long-reﬂection,
such at that proposed by MacAskill [ 29] could still drastically alter trajectory. That is, the limit to growth does not by
itself imply that any "hinge" in growth rates leads to irreversible decisions, and a different argument would still apply
for why decisions during the hinge would be irreversible, such as MacAskill’s two worldviews concerning value-lock-in,
or irreversible choices that lead to annihilation.
2.4.3 Economic Singularities
The model above shows that recent growth has been higher than the rates plausible in the long term, and the time frame
over which economic growth must drop to a lower rate is a topic for further consideration. This is because economic
growth has been, and in the very near-term likely will be, far higher than the long-term economic growth horizon.
The necessity of such a transition also relates to claims of an eventual economic singularity. Such a singularity is
already possibly unlikely to occur now, at least based on very-short term economic evidence [ 30]. But going further, a
transition to polynomial growth creates a large but non-exponential limit to the speed of any claimed singularity in the
longer term.
3 What is Value?
"...maybe that means that for civilization, part of civilization is devoted to common sense,
thick values of pursuit of art, and ﬂourishing, and so on, whereas large parts of the rest of
civilization are devoted to other values like pure bliss... The universe is a big place."
—Will MacAskill
So far, the discussion has contained repeated caveats about economic growth and economic value, as distinct from some
as-yet nebulous value-in-general. While others have noted the connection, such as Cowen [ 31]12, we attempt to clarify
that concept, and see how it relates to the economic one, and the extent to which it does not.
Before discussing how choices relate to values, we note that our discussion is premised on choice as the central question
of ethics. That is, ethics is the study of right and wrong choices , and the morality of those choices . Outside of a
comparison between things, or a decision made about them, "value" has no meaning13.
12Cowen splits the concept, saying that he’s interested in "wealth-plus," which he deﬁnes as "The total amount of value produced
over a certain time period. This includes the traditional measures of economic value found in GDP statistics, but also includes
measures of leisure time, household production, and environmental amenities, as summed up in a relevant measure of wealth." But
most economists would say that this is what economic value already captures, and the distinction made in Cowen’s terminology is a
measurement issue, rather than a disagreement about what value is.
13This is not a consequentialist claim. Any ethical statement must by deﬁnition be a comparison, saying one action (or lack
thereof) is allowed, and another is forbidden. Even if moral statements are not factual, they are descriptions of factual scenarios, and
short of nihilism, make claims that compare them.
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3.1 Values as Choices
"Give the person what they need — and they will want amenities. Provide him with amenities
— he will strive for luxury. Showered with luxury — he will begin to sigh in exquisite. Let
him get exquisite — he will crave frenzy. Give him everything that he wishes — he will
complain that he was deceived, and that he did not receive what he wanted."
—Ernest Hemingway
If there are two items, or two states of the world, and a choice must be made between them, we call the one chosen of
higher value than the other. Similarly, if a person is willing to give up one item for another in, for instance, an economic
transaction, we say that the one received is higher value to the recipient. Comparisons induce a mathematical "order" of
states14. For this reason, either preference value or trade value is at least an ordinal preference, and any notion of value
is comparative, rather than measured.
In this case, it is immediately possible to show that value under this conception in a ﬁnite universe is ﬁnite. Given a
ﬁnite set of items or states of the world, it is trivial to see that the most preferred can only be a ﬁnite number of steps
better than the least preferred. If the accessible universe is ﬁnite, as discussed below, it is then clear that the number of
steps between possible states is potentially incredibly large, but still ﬁnite15.
But value may be more than this ordinal concept. If we accept the cardinal conception of utility, value may be possible
to add and multiply, rather than just compare16. If utility is mapped to real numbers, one item can meaningfully be
called not just more valuable, but twice as valuable as another thing17. One key reason to consider cardinal utility is
because it allows comparison of options given preferences with uncertainty about outcomes. That is, a choice may
involve uncertainty, in which case the ordinal concept is insufﬁcient.
3.2 Probabilities Require Cardinal Utility
Reasoning about preferences consistently given uncertainty, as introduced by Ramsey [ 32], requires ordering of
preferences over probabilities of outcomes, rather than just outcomes. A decision maker might prefer a 1% probability
of outcome A to a 100% probability of outcome B. A simple way to represent this is to assign more than 100 times
the value, called utility, to A, then use probabilistic expectation of utility to see that the choice giving a 1% chance of
outcome A is preferred. If arbitrary probabilities need to be considered, and we wish to ensure that the preferences being
discussed fulﬁll certain basic assumptions about rational preferences, then cardinal utility, or a structure mathematically
identical to it, will be required.
In this way, reasoning and decisions under uncertainty are the conceptual basis for considering utility of outcomes,
rather than just atomic comparisons of speciﬁc options. And this can lead to problems when we insist on bounds for
value. If decision makers consider an arbitrarily small probability of a given outcome preferrable to some other certain
outcome, the utility assigned to the improbable outcome must be correspondingly high. To guarantee ﬁnitude of utility
for a coherent decisionmaker, we need to argue that there is some minimum probability that can be assigned. This is
conceptually fraught, but there are several possible responses we will discuss below in 4.2.
14We are implicitly ignoring measurability of utility in this discussion, since it is irrelevant once we assume that choices would
be made which induce an ordering. Even though an insufﬁcient number of choices are made to determine the utility, and actual
measurability is plausibly absent, the argument we present applies to any set of choices that could be made. This makes measurability
of utility irrelevant.
15While the set of things can be expanded by inventing or making new things, this faces two constraints. First, future time is
bounded, as discussed in the appendix, A.2 so only a ﬁnite number of new goods can be created. Second, the number of arrangements
of matter is ﬁnite, so the number of possible goods is limited. There may also be overlap, so that the same atoms participate in two or
more valuable things, but is still ﬁnite, if exponentially growing.
16Mathematically, this is a ring, rather than just an ordered set, because we can deﬁne addition and multiplication.
17A similar argument does not apply to ordinal utilities — there is no mathematical justiﬁcation in asserting that if one banana is
traded for two apples, the banana is twice as "valuable", since the speciﬁc trade implies nothing about general preferences. More
precisely, when discussing ordinal value mathematically, the notion of multiplying a position in the order by a number is meaningless.
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This cardinal concept of utility also allows other possible objections to the conclusion that a ﬁnite universe can only
have ﬁnite value, including lexicographic preferences, non-doscounted inﬁnite time horizons, and other concerns which
we will address.
3.3 Aggregative Ethical Theories and Objective versus Subjective Value
"For welfare to be ﬁnite... the ‘amplitude’ of welfare cannot be inﬁnite at any particular
moment in time, and a life can only have a ﬁnite duration of welfare."
—Siebe Rozendal [33]
Given our initial claims about the physical universe, we will note that our discussion of ﬁnitude of value is independent
of a number of important philosophical disputes about ethics, at least in most ethical systems. For instance, whether
value is an objective or subjective function of the world does not change whether an upper limit exists since it still needs
to be represented18. Similarly, aggregative value, where overall value is the sum of the value for each individual, will
increase the limit of value being discussed, for example, by multiplying the value limit by as much as the number of
possible morally relevant beings which can assign value. Despite this, because the morally relevant beings are physical,
and therefore require mass, the number of such morally relevant beings is ﬁnite, and therefore so is the total value19.
Similar arguments for ﬁnitude can be made for any other form of value aggregation of which we are aware.
4 Result, Objections, and Responses
Value is ﬁnite. That is, in a physical universe that has no inﬁnite physical and temporal scope, no inﬁnities are available
to represent inﬁnite value in decision-making processes. Hence, any possible assignment of value used for decision
making has to be ﬁnite.
It is possible to object to the claim of ﬁnitude. We believe that the entire set of possible objections, however, can be
answered. Responding to the objections, therefore, is critical to the above claim. We therefore list the key objections,
then review and explain them. After each, we will respond, including novel arguments against several such claims.
1. Rejecting (our current understanding of) physics
2. Rejecting preferences, by either
rejecting comparability,
rejecting ﬁnite preferences,
rejecting bounded expected utility, or
bounding probabilities (possibly via embracing inﬁntesimals as valid probabilities for decisions,)
3. Rejecting ethical theories or embracing nihilism20
4. Rejecting the need for accessibility of value for decisions.
5. Rejecting or altering traditional causal decision theories.
4.1 Rejecting Physics
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however
satisfying and reassuring."
—Carl Sagan
18It may be suggested that value could be purely ’subjective’, i.e. independent of even the physical state of the brain of the person
whose values are considered. If so, there is no relationship between the world and value, and the "ethics" being discussed does
not relate to any decisions which may be made. If, however, ethics does relate to the physical world, then there can be some value
assigned to each possible state and/or world-history.
19One could imagine an ad-hoc objection assigning moral weight to an inﬁnite number of posited non-physical beings, but this
does not change preferences being about physical states, so the resulting inﬁnite value can therefore be mapped to ﬁnite numbers.
The number of angels dancing on the head of a pin may be inﬁnite, but the value they assign to the pin effectively cannot be.
20or perhaps some other non-consequentialist, non-deontological, and non-rights and non-virtue based theory of ethics.
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Perhaps our understanding of physics is incorrect. That is, it is possible that our understanding of any of the assumed-
correct disciplines discussed here, from cosmology to computation. This is not merely an objection to the authors’
personal grasp of the subjects, but a claim that speciﬁc premises may, in the future, be found to be incorrect21.
4.1.1 Pessimistic Meta-induction and expectations of falsiﬁcation
The pessimistic meta-induction warns that since many past successful scientiﬁc theories were found to be false, we have
no reason expect that our currently successful theories are approximately true. Hence, for example, the above constraints
on information processing are not guaranteed to imply ﬁnitude. Indeed, many of them are based on information physics
that is weakly understood and liable to be updated in new directions. If physics in our universe does, in fact, allow for
access to inﬁnite matter, energy, time, or computation through some as-yet-undiscovered loophole, it would undermine
the central claim to ﬁnitude.
This criticism cannot be refuted, but there are two reasons to be at least somewhat skeptical. First, scientiﬁc progress
is not typically revisionist, but rather aggregative. Even the scientiﬁc revolutions of Newton, then Einstein, did not
eliminate gravity, but rather explained it further. While we should regard the scientiﬁc input to our argument as tentative,
the fallibility argument merely shows that science will likely change. It does not show that it will change in the
direction of allowing inﬁnite storage. Second, past results in physics have increasingly found strict bounds on the
range of physical phenomena rather than unbounding them. Classical mechanics allow for far more forms of dynamics
than relativistic mechanics, and quantum mechanics strongly constrain what can be known and manipulated on small
scales22.
While all of these arguments in defense of physics are strong evidence that it is correct, it is reasonable to assign a
very small but non-zero value to the possibility that the laws of physics allow for inﬁnities. In that case, any claimed
inﬁnities based on a claim of incorrect physics can only provide conditional inﬁnities. And those conditional inﬁnities
may be irrelevant to our decisionmaking, for various reasons.
4.1.2 Boltzmann Brains, Decisions, and the indeﬁnite long-term
One speciﬁc possible consideration for an inﬁnity is that after the heat-death of the universe23there will be an indeﬁnitely
long period where Boltzmann brains can be created from random ﬂuctuations. Such brains are isomorphic to thinking
human brains, and in the inﬁnite long-term, an inﬁnite number of such brains might exist [ 34]. If such brains are morally
relevant, this seems to provide a value inﬁnity.
We argue that even if these brains have moral value, it is by construction impossible to affect their state, or the distribution
of their states. This makes their value largely irrelevant to decision-making, with one caveat. That is, if a decision-maker
believes that these brains have positive or negative moral value, it could inﬂuence decisions about whether decisions
that could (or would intentionally) destroy space-time, for instance, by causing a false-vacuum collapse. Such an action
would be a positive or negative decision, depending on whether the future value of a non-collapsed universe is otherwise
positive or negative. Similar and related implications exist depending on whether a post-collapse universe itself has a
positive or negative moral value.
21This is different from a broader and fundamental possible argument, which is that science has no ﬁnal conclusions which can be
relied on for absolute moral claims. We reject this as morally irrelevant, since our discussion is about decisions which are made
in reality. Given that, objections about the impossibility of certainty are also implicitly rejected by argument about the limits to
probabilities.
22Of course, some results may ﬁnd looser rather than stricter bounds. Despite this, even if we conclude that most speciﬁc currently
known limits will be rejected at some point, this does not go far enough to imply that no such limits exist, and the central claim of
this paper remains true.
23If there is no universe-ending Big Rip or the cosmological constant is negative enough to cause recollapse. At least the latter
is disfavored by current cosmological observations. The former has no theoretical or empirical support. See also the Appendix.
The nature of the heat-death does not matter much for the argument: the classic idea was a state of minimum free energy, while
the modern is an equilibrium state of maximum entropy, or a "freeze" state where individual particles remain isolated at ﬁnite
(microscopic) temperature. In either case random thermal ﬂuctuations will occur brieﬂy bringing it away from equilibrium from time
to time. There may be a causal effect of our actions on the post heat-death state, but no action now can determine a post-heat death
event.
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Despite the caveat, however, a corresponding (and less limited) argument can be made about decisionmaking for other
proposed inﬁnities that cannot be affected. For example, inaccessible portions of the universe, beyond the reachable
light-cone, cannot be causally inﬂuenced. As long as we maintain that we care about the causal impacts of decisions,
they are irrelevant to decisionmaking.
4.2 Rejecting preferences
It is possible to reject the claims of relevant ﬁnitude by dispensing with one of the various required aspects of preferences
needed for decisionmaking24.
4.2.1 Rejecting Comparability
It may be objected that perhaps value is not ﬁnite because comparison is impossible, or alternatively, that some things
are "inﬁnitely valuable" on their own. Or perhaps humans can assign values in ways that are incompatible with ﬁnite
value25. We discuss both, in sections 4.2.1 and 4.2.2, and reject them as untenable.
To address the ﬁrst, we note the discussion in philosophy about whether values can be incomparable — that is, given
two items or states of the world, neither is better. Chang’s work [ 35,36] makes a compelling argument rejecting
incomparability, which view we would adopt for this paper. However, even without that, this incomparability argument
is less than fatal to our claim. This is because incomparability still leads to a partial ordering of value, rather than a total
ordering. That is, in a universe with positive value on bananas and blueberries, it is still the case that two blueberries
are better than one, and two blueberries and a banana are better than one blueberry and a banana, even if we reject
any possibility that the two can be compared. This leads to a large number of partial orderings of preferences, but any
claims made about full orderings will apply to each partial ordering. For that reason, an analogue of any argument we
provide will exist even if values are incomparable, and non-comparability alone does not allow for inﬁnite value.
The alternative objection is where one item is "inﬁnitely better" than another, and is thus incomparable in a different
sense. These lexical preferences, as they are called, are not commensurate with any other value; most people would
consider taking 2 bananas for one blueberry, but is seems at least arguable that there is no number of bananas many of
them would take in exchange for not staying alive26. This idea of lexical preferences will be dealt with formally and in
general below.
To address the second point, that humans might have an intrinsic ability to assign inﬁnite values, we need to address
what the assignment of human values means. One key question is what preferences are coherent, or valid, and a second
is how these relate to decision making. There is a signiﬁcant philosophical literature on whether inﬁnities are coherent
or logically possible, from Aristotle’s rejection of "actual inﬁnities", to recent work on inﬁnite ethics [ 37]. We do not
address these points, and limit ourselves to whether there are morally relevant physical inﬁnities.
Given that, we must return to a central assumption we have made about values, that they must be morally relevant, i.e.
make a difference in some ethical comparison or decision. This will be discussed further after considering lexicographic
preferences.
24Aside from the obvious but ineffective method of rejecting the requirement for coherency or consistency, since doing so, and
allowing utilities that do not conform to the required characteristics of rationality makes any discussion of maximum "utilities"
irrelevant.
25For example, due to inﬁnitesimal probability assignments.
26This argument cannot be used to justify claims of speciﬁcally exponential economic growth, since that relies on the claim that by
investing resources now, the choice will lead to greater value in the future by enabling that growth. However, if a lexically preferable
outcome can be purchased or created with money that can be invested, the analogue of economic growth has a utility function which
is discontinuous, not growing exponentially.
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4.2.2 Rejecting Finite Preferences
So-called lexicographic preferences consider some states inﬁnitely better than other states27. There are two approaches
that would justify a lexicographic claim, one intrinsic, and one based on probability. The intrinsic justiﬁcation is that
there are incomparably better states. For example, a negative utilitarian could argue that any state in which there is no
suffering is inﬁnitely preferable to any state that contains suffering. Compatibly, the probabilistic justiﬁcation is that no
probability of one state is sufﬁciently low that it would not be preferred. In this model, a negative utilitarian could say
that any ﬁnite probability of more suffering is worse than a guarantee of less suffering28.
If such preferences exist, they are typically claimed to lead to the impossibility of representing preferences as a
real-valued utility function [ 38]. That is, if one item is "inﬁnitely better," and preferences are cardinal29, the claim is
that we cannot bound utility to any ﬁnite value at all. We argue that as long as goods or states of the universe are ﬁnite,
as occurs in a ﬁxed volume of space with ﬁxed total mass, this is untrue. This is based on a constructive proof, shown
below.
As an example, we can consider a ﬁnite universe with three goods and lexicographic preferences ABC. We
denote the number of each good NA;NB;NC, and the maximum possible of each in the ﬁnite universe as MA;MB;MC.
SetM= max(MA;MB;MC)30. We can now assign utility for a bundle of goods
U(NA;NB;NC) =NC+NB(M+ 1) +NA(M2+ 1):
This assignment captures the lexicographic preferences exactly31. This can obviously be extended to any ﬁnite number
of goodsNn, with a total of N= max(n)different goods, with any ﬁnite maximum of each32.
As the most extreme possible example, assume our social welfare function has a lexicographic preference for ﬁlling the
Milky Way with hedonium A over hedonium B, B over C, etc. We could still bound the number nof different such
"goods" that could plausibly be lexicographically preferred, and the number Mwhich could be made in the universe,
to derive a bound of 2Mn+1. Even if the number of lexicographically preferred goods is enormous, it is bounded
by the physically limited arrangement of matter that is possible, giving a still ﬁnite, if even more unimaginably large
number.
To extend this logic to address probabilities, we must consider the assignment of probabilities and assignment of utility,
which we do below. Before doing so, however, we will justify a claim underlying our argument.
4.2.3 Rejecting Bounded Expected Utility
"We have therefore to consider the human mind and what is the most we can ask of it."
—Frank Ramsey
27Etymologically, this comes from the idea of a lexicographic order, which generalizes the notion of alphabetic ordering. In an
alphabetized list, any word starting with the letter "A" is lexicographically prior to any word starting with "B". Similarly, any world
with a lexicographically preferred good is always better than one without. This is equivalent to saying that no matter what else
occurs, that world is better. As we will show, however, lexicographic preferences do no necessarily imply actual inﬁnities.
28We do not address the interesting but unrelated case where a negative utilitarian might have preferences that include trading
off amounts and probabilities of suffering, though this might also involve claimed inﬁnities, as they are addressed with the same
argument as is used for other cases below.
29If preferences are ordinal, this just requires placing lexicographic preferred goods above less preferred ones, so the objection is
irrelevant.
30This will be a huge number, of course. As an illustrative example, bananas are approximately 150 grams each, so the Milky Way
would has M Bananas of21043, for normal sized bananas. Blueberries are around half a gram, leading to M Blueberry =31045.
31In the previous footnote’s banana-blueberry universe, someone with a lexicographic preference for bananas over blueberries
who assigns blueberries value 1 would assign value 31045to a banana.
32Per the previous footnote, many believe that human lives are lexicographically superior to bananas. As the 2nd century Jewish
saying notes, “Whoever saves a single human life, it is as if they have saved a whole world," (Sanhedrin 4:5) which presumably is even
more true if the world that is saved in entirely ﬁlled with bananas. But representing the value of inﬁnitely valuable (presumably happy)
human lives does not require use of inﬁnity. In fact, the by-assumption inﬁnite value of a human life can be represented as being at
most 21043+1 times the value of a banana, or around 61088+1 times the value of a blueberry. In a blueberry-banana-human
value universe, inﬁnitely valuable human lives are much better than blueberries, but mathematically still not even a googol times
better, much less inﬁnitely so.
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Given that we conclude even lexicographic preferences are ﬁnite, might a person still assign inﬁnite value to some
outcome? That is, if utility is not only an ordering of states, but a function, is it coherent for a person to insist on
discontinuities, where they assign ﬁve times as much utility to an apple as to a banana, and inﬁnitely more utility to
remaining alive as to dying? It is possible to argue that value-in-general is different than utility, but to the extent that the
value is used for decision, we need some way to choose, and to be coherent, this method must compare states. Since
we assume all states must be comparable using a (perhaps non-VNM-like) utility function, it still seems that value is
bounded by the ability of the valuer to make decisions and to consider the different outcomes.
A utility function, in the decision theoretic or economic sense, is invariant to afﬁne transformations. That is, multiplying
every value by 2, or adding 17 to each utility, does not change the preferences that the utility function describes. But
placing anything as inﬁnitely valuable is a lexicographic preference, and for utility functions, the exact location of
the lexicographic preference is irrelevant — as long as the order is preserved. This is true even when allowing for
truly different experienced utility. If two humans both experience utility from a good, but (as an extension of Nozick’s
monster, [ 39]) one of them has a qualitatively inﬁnitely better experience, we can treat their value as a lexicographic
one. But this only implies that the earlier construction of a ﬁnite representation of lexicographic preferences captures
all decision relevant factors, even inﬁnite value. We therefore conclude that in a ﬁnite universe, any choices that are
made can be reduced to perhaps incomprehensibly large but necessarily ﬁnite comparisons. This demonstrates that
given physical ﬁnitude, ethics overall cannot be changed solely by claimed inﬁnities in preferences between outcomes,
at least before accounting for probabilities.
4.2.4 Bounding Probabilities
"...it was just very very very big, so big that it gave the impression of inﬁnity far better than
inﬁnity itself."
—Douglas Adams
As noted above, any act considered by a rational decision maker, whether consequentialist or otherwise, is about
preferences over a necessarily ﬁnite number of possible decisions. This means that if we restrict a decision-maker or
ethical system to ﬁnite, non-zero probabilities relating to ﬁnite value assigned to each end state, we end up with only
ﬁnite achievable value33. The question is whether probabilities can in fact be bounded in this way.
We imagine Robert, faced with a choice between getting $1US
2020 with certainty, and getting $100 billionUS
2020 with
some probability. Given that there are two choices, Robert assigns utility in proportion to the value of the outcome
weighted by the probability. If the probability is low enough, yet he chooses the option, it implies that the value must be
correspondingly high.
As a ﬁrst argument, imagine Robert rationally believes there is a probability of 10100of receiving the second option,
and despite the lower expected dollar value, chooses it. This implies that he values receiving $100 billionUS
2020 at
approximately 10100x the value of receiving $1US
2020. While this preference is strange, it is valid, and can be used to
illustrate why Bayesians should not consider inﬁnitesimal probabilities valid34.
To show this, we ask what would be needed for Robert to be convinced this unlikely event occurred. Clearly, Robert
would need evidence, and given the incredibly low prior probability, the evidence would need to be stupendously
strong. If someone showed Robert that his bank balance was now $100 billion dollarsUS
2020 higher, that would provide
some evidence for the claim—but on its own, a bank statement can be fabricated, or in error. This means the provided
evidence is not nearly enough to convince him that the event occurred35. In fact, with such a low prior probability, it
seems plausible that Robert could have everyone he knows agree that it occurred, see newspaper articles about the fact,
33For those decision-makers who have other value systems, the earlier discussion sufﬁces, and probabilities do not enter the
discussion.
34We are grateful to Evan Ryan Gunter for suggesting several points we address in this section.
35One could argue that Robert’s goal is not to have the state of receiving $100 billionUS
2020, but rather the state of believing that he
received the money. If so, of course, the relevant probability to assess is not that he would receive the money - and if he assigns
a probability of 10100to that, he is severely miscalibrated, at least about the probability of delusions. Despite this, the below
arguments still apply, albeit with a different referent event.
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and so on, and given the low prior odds assigned, still not be convinced. Of course, in the case that the event happened,
the likelihood of getting all of that evidence will be much higher, causing him to update towards thinking it occurred.
A repeatable experiment which generates uncorrelated evidence could provide far more evidence over time, but complete
lack of correlation seems implausible; checking the bank account balance twice gives almost no more evidence than
checking it once. And as discussed in the appendix, even granting the possibility of such evidence generation, the
amount possible is still bounded by available time, and therefore ﬁnite.
Practically, perhaps the combination of evidence reaches odds of 1050:1 that the new money exists versus that it does
not. Despite this, if he truly assigned the initially implausibly low probability, any feasible update would not be enough
to make the event, receiving the larger sum, be a feasible contender for what Robert should conclude. Not only that, but
we posit that a rational decision maker should know, beforehand, that he cannot ever conclude that the second case
occurs36.
If he is, in fact, a rational decision maker, it seems strange to the point of absurdity for him to to choose something he
can never believe occurred37, over the alternative of a certain small gain.
Generally, then, if an outcome is possible, at some point a rational observer must be able to be convinced, by aggregating
evidence, that it occurred. Because evidence is a function of physical reality, the possible evidence is bounded, just
as value itself is limited by physical constraints. We suggest (generously) that the strength of this evidence is limited
to odds of the number of possible quantum states of the visible universe — a huge but ﬁnite value38— to 1. If the
prior probability assigned to an outcome is too low to allow for a decision maker to conclude it has occurred given any
possible universe, no matter what improbable observations occur, we claim the assigned probability is not meaningful
for decision making. As with the bound on lexicographic preferences, this bound allows for an immensely large
assignment of value, even inconceivably so, but it is again still ﬁnite.
The second argument seizes on the question of inconceivability, without relying on Bayesian decision theory or
rationality. Here we appeal to an even more basic premise of expected value, which is needing a probability assignment,
or a value assignment at all. If Robert cannot conceive of the probability, he cannot use it for computations, or make
decisions as if it were true. The question at this point is whether he can conceive of inﬁnitesimal probabilities.39
We have been unfortunately unable to come up with a clear defense of the conceivability of inﬁnities and inﬁnitesimals
used for decisionmaking, but will note a weak argument to illustrate the nonviable nature of the most common class of
objection. The weak claim is that people can conceive of inﬁnitesimals, as shown by the fact that there is a word for it,
or that there is a mathematical formalism that describes it. But, we respond, this does not make a claim for the ability to
conceive of a value any better than St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More comically, we can say
that this makes the case approximately the same way someone might claim to understand inﬁnity because they can draw
an 8 sideways — it says nothing about their conception, much less the ability to make decisions on the basis of the
inﬁnite or inﬁnitesimal value or probability.
Finally, we can also appeal to what Aaronson calls the Evolutionary Principle, which states that "knowledge requires a
causal process to bring it into existence." [ 40] If moral statements and values are truth-apt, any value, or probability,
which is found in moral epistemology or in an individual’s preferences requires that some physical process led to the
36Perhaps he can accept the result with less convincing evidence. One might argue that if every conceivable result of having the
money occurs, he might as well accept it as having occurred. In that case, however, the odds he assigned to the possibility are not
actually 10100, which is veriﬁed by the fact that less than the corresponding amount of evidence effectively convinced him.
37If he is not, in fact, a rational Bayesian, and his probability assignment was a statement of preference rather than an estimate, it
is a lexicographic preference rather than a probability, and can be discussed as above.
38About exp(10123)10104:310122
.
39When reasoning about a probability like 10100we can use mathematical methods to reach reliable conclusions, e.g. that 1099
is 10 times more likely, despite not having any intuition about the value itself. This ability to place concepts into lawful relations to
each other relies on the existence of representations that can be manipulated. The need to represent the relations applies even if
consideration must be outsourced to formal methods rather than intuitive comprehension. In fact, given any number of possible states
in a universe, the number of possible states is the maximum number of distinct values which can be represented. By the pigeon-hole
principle, the probability of at least one state must be lower than the smallest discretely representable value in the system. As the
number of possible quantum states of the universe suggests, there are probabilities which cannot be explicitly represented using any
ﬁnite system, but they will not be relevant for decision-making.
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assignment of moral value. This argument is potentially incompatible with moral non-cognitivism, but even ethical
subjectivism requires individual value judgements to occur, and these are subject to the same physical constraints due to
being a result of a causal process.
The relationship of value to probability is itself closely related to the relationship of outcomes to value. That is, there
must be a physical or cognitive process that arrives at the decision of what value to assign to an outcome. Any probability
assignment, per the Evolutionary Principle, is a function of the computation available. And given the earlier-discussed
limits on storage and on computation, assigning a probability value Xto a state will be limited. Even if we assume that
the entire universe’s computational capacity is available, there is some immensely large but ﬁnite number that can never
be found40.
4.3 Rejecting Ethical Theories
However, value might be fundamentally different than we assume. We begin by looking at consequentialist version of
the argument, then brieﬂy address other moral claims.
We noted above that one of the arguments about bounding probability, and value, does not work given moral non-
cognitivism. We can make a similar claim about moral realism, where perhaps value is in fact inherent in objects in a
physical sense. After all, while the location of an object or its temperature can be represented, they are also inherent in
the object (or at least inherent in the relationship between the object and the surroundings).
However, we again appeal to the question of decision making. Even for moral realists, either this value can be directly
experienced or it cannot. In the latter case we still need to represent our estimates of the value, and these representations
will be subject to the earlier bounds on physical reality. In the former case we need to be able to compare values to
each other. Either this occurs through comparing mental representations of the actual value experiences (necessarily
bounded), or we directly compare the intrisic values without any representational intermediary — but the comparison
requires some minimal computation to occur outside of the objects. In either case, a clear bound exists on what value is
possible.
Alternatively, we can consider ethical-theory objections, rather than the meta-ethical ones above. We assume in the
discussion a utilitarian or at least consequentialist viewpoint. This is in large part because the question of ﬁnitude
of value is most clearly relevant in that frame. Despite this, other theories face similar limits. Deontological and
rights-based theories are faced with a ﬁnite number of possible actions which have moral value, and the earlier arguments
for comparability and ﬁnitude would still apply.
4.4 Accessibility
Bostrom’s discussion of inﬁnite ethics is premised on the moral relevance of physically inaccessible value. That is,
it assumes that aggregative utilitarianism is over the full universe, rather than the accessible universe. This requires
certain assumptions about the universe, as well as being premised on a variant of the incomparability argument that we
dismissed above, but has an additional response which is possible, presaged earlier. Namely, we can argue that this does
not pose a problem for ethical decision-making even using aggregative ethics, because the consequences of any ethical
decision can have only a ﬁnite (difference in) value. This is because the value of a moral decision relates only to the
impact of that decision. Anything outside of the inﬂuenced universe is not affected, and the arguments above show that
the difference any decision makes is ﬁnite.
We argued earlier that Boltzmann brains are inaccessible, since our actions do not impact the distribution of random
matter after the heat death of the universe. This relies on a different type of inaccessibility, since our actions can have an
impact, but one that is fundamentally unpredictable — making us morally clueless [ 41] in an even stronger sense than
complex cluelessness [ 42]. Still, any solution to cluelessness seems to leave inaccessible impacts morally irrelevant
[43], and this would apply even more strongly to our case.
40In computer science, inﬁnities of a certain type are limited to non-halting programs, and these programs do not return a value
before the end of the universe. For that reason, conceivable inﬁnities are only ever potential, rather than actual, in an interesting
return to an Aristotelian dichotomy about inﬁnities.
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4.5 Rejecting or Altering Decision Theory
Another approach to avoiding ﬁnitude is to question not preferences, but decision theory itself. There are discussions
like [ 44] which consider decision theories that would allow for causal relationships with entities outside of the reachable
universe in various ways, such as those discussed by Yudkowsky [ 45]. This alone does not imply inﬁnite value. However,
there are some proposed cosmologies in which these decision theories imply inﬁnite value is possible41. For example,
this would be true if we accept the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis proposed by Tegmark[46].
This conclusion goes further than most proponents of such theories would argue, and farther than is required for the
purposes of the current argument — it says that ethics, rather than just decision making, should be based on these
theories. In fact, most of the arguments in favor of non-causal decision theories are based on the consequentialist claims
that these decision rules perform better in some situations. For this reason, the use of such theories to reject the type of
consequentialism that justiﬁed them is not inconsistent, but seem a bit perverse.
Not only that, but Stoeger [ 47] points out that the universes with inﬁnite value proposed by Tegmark are both unreachable,
and unfalsiﬁable. Despite all of this, if we consider value aggregated over the multiverse in ways that do not renormalize
to ﬁnite measure, we can be left with inﬁnities. And as with rejecting physics, if we assign any ﬁnite positive probability
to this being true, we are potentially42left with decisions that have inﬁnities in their value.
Another key point about decision theory can be used to address the argument about potential inﬁnities, related to our
discussion of accessibility. That is, if we assign a small but non-zero value to physics being incorrect in ways that allow,
say, reversing entropy, and inﬁnite value is possible, all inﬁnities are still limited to this possible universe, and decisions
must be made on that basis.
Traditional expected-value decision theory is often interpreted to require risk-neutrality. This means that a single inﬁnity
will dominate any decision calculus. Many of the arguments for risk-neutrality, such as arbitrage and exploitation of
repeated chances, fall apart in the current scenario. For example, if risk-neutrality is based on the possibility of arbitrage,
where a risk-neutral participant in a market can receive free money by taking and perfectly hedging a risk, this becomes
impossible when the risk is a single binary question which cannot be hedged. The same is true for the argument from
repeated chances. A person might prefer $100 with certainty to a 60% chance of $200, but if they believe that this
and similar choices will occur again in the future, the choosing the riskier option each time becomes more and more
attractive, as the expected value remains the same but the risk of losing overall decreases with each additional bet. This
clearly cannot apply to a single possibility about the question of which physical laws obtain in the universe.
However, a rational actor might choose to embrace a regret-minimization approach43. In this case, the regret from
not maximizing the small probability of inﬁnite return is inﬁnite. We note, however, that key justiﬁcations of regret
minimization involve arguments from long-term results that we reject above, while others are game-theoretic and do not
apply here[50].
If we consider uncertainty over ethical theories, then given the standard metanormative theory of maximizing expected
choiceworthiness, [ 51] we would apply the arguments above. One key criticism of that approach, however, is that it
requires intertheoretic unit comparisons, and per Greaves and Cotton-Barratt, [ 52] this leads to a number of issues
pointed out by Dai [ 53]. If we choose an alternative metanormative approach to address this, we my be able to reject
possible inﬁnities due to moral uncertainty even more simply. In Greaves and Cotton-Barratt’s moral parliament, using
bargaining theory, the problem of inﬁnities being assigned some nonzero probability is addressed in a straightforward
way, as by design no ethical theory can hijack the decision.
Note that an implicit conclusion from the assumption of inﬁnite possible value is that moral progress is unbounded. Of
course, that implies that any ﬁnite value achieved, however large, is an exactly nil fraction of possible value. In contrast
41In mainstream cosmological theories, there is a single universe, and the extent can be large but ﬁnite even when considering
the unreachable portion (e.g. in closed topologies). In that case, these alternative decision theories are useful for interaction with
unreachable beings, or as ways to interact with powerful predictors, but still do not lead to inﬁnities.
42It is of course possible to embrace all of these claims, but still ﬁnd that for other reasons, such as choice of the theory of ethics,
inﬁnities do not apply.
43A rational actor can do so not as a failure or accommodation due to biases, [ 48] but as an alternative axiomatic framework [ 49].
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to this, if value can be taken to be ﬁnite, moral progress is limited to a ﬁnite value, but progress is meaningful, in the
sense that we can approach that maximum44.
5 Conclusions
"I see the world being slowly transformed into a wilderness; I hear the approaching thunder
that, one day, will destroy us too. I feel the suffering of millions. And yet, when I look up at
the sky, I somehow feel that everything will change for the better, that this cruelty too shall
end, that peace and tranquility will return once more."
—Anne Frank
The above argument leads to the clear conclusion that humanity’s best current understanding of physics implies
that possible value is ﬁnite. Despite the usefulness of inﬁnities in mathematics, physics, and even in discussions of
preferences, given humanity’s current understanding of physics we have shown that the morally relevant universe is
ﬁnite, and can have only ﬁnite value. Of course any human reasoning is fallible, and any probability that this argument
is wrong would lead to an expected inﬁnite value, and lead to a Pascal’s-wager-like obviation of any comparative value.
Short of that, however, we can safely conclude that in this universe, abiding by the currently understood physical laws,
moral value is, and will always be, ﬁnite.
To reject this claim, a few choices are available. First, one could rejecting our current understanding of physics, and
insist that modern physics is incorrect in very speciﬁc ways. Second, one can reject values and decision theory in
very speciﬁc ways, such as rejecting comparability, relying on non-cognitivism or embracing inﬁntesimals as valid
probabilities for decisions, or embracing non-causal models for decision theory as the basis of ethics and simultaneously
rejecting accessibility of value. Lastly, one could choose nihilism, or some nontraditional ethical theory designed to
avoid ﬁnitude.
None of these is unreasonable. However, we caution that each allows for inﬁnite value only conditional on a variety of
assumptions laid out in the paper.
Without these, our universe, and any universe with similar physical laws, has at most ﬁnite value for any moral actor.
The peculiar nature of the inﬁnite means that anyﬁnite value of the universe, no matter how large, as a fraction of
inﬁnity is exactly zero. Considered not as a fraction of inﬁnity, of course, the immensely large physical limits do not
preclude, and in fact imply, the existence of possible value far beyond that which humans currently imagine. Rejecting
inﬁnite values, and the various paradoxes and dilemmas they implicate, allows us to focus on considering what values
should be pursued, and how best to reach the paradise that the future can become.
44cf. MacAskill’s argument that "the vast majority of my expectation about the future is that relative to the best possible future we
do something close to zero. But that’s cause I think the best possible future’s probably some very narrow target.... how much better
could the world be? I don’t know, tens of times, hundreds of times, probably more. In the future, I think it’ll get more extreme." [ 54]
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Appendix A — Bounds on the Physical Universe
“Space is big. You just won’t believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean,
you may think it’s a long way down the road to the chemist’s, but that’s just peanuts to space.”
–—Douglas Adams
If the accessible physical universe is unbounded, the assumption which leads to our conclusion is incorrect. As we
outline below, it seems difﬁcult to make this claim. Earlier, we considered the short term future of humanity expanding
throughout the Milky Way Galaxy. This rested on assuming ﬁnite time, and therefore ﬁnite available space. Now, we
consider the longer term future, and point to fundamental limits that will apply over the full lifespan of the universe.
A.1 The Accessible Universe is Neither Eternal, nor Inﬁnitely Large
"Inﬁnity itself looks ﬂat and uninteresting. Looking up into the night sky is looking into
inﬁnity — distance is incomprehensible and therefore meaningless."
—Douglas Adams
The physical extent of the universe could, conceivably, be inﬁnite. Unfortunately, even in this case physics limits the
reachable portion of the universe to necessarily be ﬁnite. The reason is the accelerating expansion of the universe that
not just moves remote galaxies away from us but moves them at such a speed that most can never be reached even if
we expand from Earth at lightspeed. While the observable universe is approximately 46:5billion light-years in radius
and increasing in size [ 55], the reachable universe is limited to inside the cosmological event horizon 14.5 billion
light-years away and decreasing in size. [ 56] No material resources outside this distance can be acquired, nor can we
causally affect such resources or places.
The current distance to the event horizon is
=cZ1
tnowdt
a(t)
wherea(t)is the scale factor of the universe. If the equation of state parameter w=p=of the dominant component
of the universe45isw <1=3then the integral converges and the amount of ever accessible matter is bounded by
(4=3)30where0is the current matter density. [57]
For dark energy w=1, but in the past radiation- ( w= 1=3) and matter-dominated ( w= 0) eras have occurred.
They are unlikely to recur since dark energy appears to be dominant and growing. Quintessence theories allow for
time-varying w, but there is neither any evidence nor any counter-evidence for them. Determining the higher order
terms of the equation of state (that would allow detecting a time-varying w) through observation may turn out to be
infeasible for the foreseeable future [ 58]. Similarly there are a number of alternative explanations of the accelerating
expansion, but the accepted mainstream model is CDM with horizons. Empirically, w=0:980:06, well away
from the1=3boundary [59].
Even if there were no event horizon, at any ﬁnite time the total space that could be settled would still be ﬁnite. Inﬁnite
resources are only obtainable in the limit even in welcoming cosmologies. Given that supposition, we would need to
argue that physics guarantees that time for value-related activities itself is ﬁnite. We do so now.
A.2 Temporal Limits
If your time to you is worth savin’
Then you better start swimmin’ or you’ll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin’
—Bob Dylan
45Typically, the lowest win a mixture of components will tend to dominate the expansion at large time.
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Our current understanding of cosmology is incomplete, but current theories agree that even if the universe is temporally
inﬁnite in some sense, there is a point at which we reach either universal heat death, or a big freeze. Long before this
proton decay would remove any baryonic matter (the only form we know can produce computation and life), and black
hole evaporation later removes all other forms of concentrated matter, leaving individual elementary particles causally
disconnected in expanding space46[60]. In either case, at some theoretically determinable point in the future, the state
of the universe will not be affected by any current actions. Hence, value-related activities will necessarily be limited to
end before this point.
A.2.1 Evading spatial or temporal ﬁnitude
These assumptions could be invalidated if, for example, faster than light (FTL) travel is possible (the human domain
could expand beyond the cosmological event horizon) or radically different cosmological theories were true. However,
the consequences of FTL include time-travel with the concomitant trouble with causality, CTC-based hypercomputing47,
and the difﬁculty of deﬁning when value exists, or whether the value is caused by an action that occurred at a different
time. While this cannot be ruled out, the consequences for value theory are much more problematic than a ﬁnite limit to
value.
Alternatively, if dark energy is absent, intergalactic settlement could continue indeﬁnitely, acquiring a slowly diverging
amount of matter until the time limits set in. A world without proton decay is certainly conceivable, but to allow
structure to persist indeﬁnitely, temperatures need to decline indeﬁnitely. There have been proposals for evading the heat
death of such an expanding universe by hibernating longer and longer periods, exploiting the ever colder environment for
a diverging amount of computation with a ﬁnite energy budget [ 61]; this is not compatible with accelerating expansion,
which causes a ﬁnite temperature horizon radiation that makes indeﬁnite information processing with error correction
impossible for ﬁnite-resourced civilizations [ 62]. The cosmology could also be closed or have a Big Rip singularity,
producing an even more deﬁnite endpoint.
Universes where indeﬁnite settlement is possible require that either we must be empirically wrong about the accelerating
expansion, or that an as-yet-unknown physical phenomena change win the future (and henceforth maintain w>1=3),
andin either case, that proton decay and all other late-era structure-disrupting phenomena predicted from current
theories must all be wrong. One can never rule out radically different physical theories as alternatives to the mainstream
model, but their prior probability does not appear high, especially since several independent properties of physics need
to conspire to allow indeﬁnite settlement.
The remaining unaddressed question is whether ﬁnite time and ﬁnite space still allow relevant inﬁnities. As explained
below, the physical limits on storage make this impossible, and this will allow us to consider the remaining objection to
ﬁnite value.
A.3 Physical limits to storage
In addition to limitations on the size of the universe, there are also fundamental limits on physical information storage.
The most obvious limit is on the mass or energy used to encode information — but volume matters too.
While the efﬁciency of current magnetic storage is about 1 million atoms per bit, DNA storage can achieve 32 atoms
per bit and in principle one could store one bit per atom (for example by using12C and13C atoms in a diamond lattice).
Information can also be stored as radiation, an example being light circulating in long delay-lines. These limits depend
on the types of information-carriers available48.
46Long before this point there will be no possibility of there existing any sentient beings to consider the possible value, but perhaps
those beings have preferences about later outcomes regardless of that fact.
47Which would, by allowing sending information back in time, allow to always ﬁnd the action with the highest measured value.
Whether this solves ethics or merely makes implementing ethical systems trivial (at a slight cost of the concept of free will) may be
debated.
48For example, if we assume all of the baryonic mass in the Milky Way is converted to carbon atoms 9:31066bits could be
stored. Were the whole mass converted to light in delay-lines across the galaxy, the storage capacity would be (R=c)(E=2~) =
1:310105bits (based on [63, eq. 112]).
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For fundamental reasons, it is believed that we cannot store more than 1066bits cm3. This is based on the covariant
entropy bound that states that the maximum amount of information that can be stored within a region is bounded by
IA
4APl=c3A
4~G;
whereAis the area of the region [64, 65, 66]49.
There exist a rich ﬂora of such entropy bounds. The "classic" bound is the Bekenstein bound for the information inside
a spherical region of radius Rand energyE[67], which bounds it as
I2RE
~c:
Since it was proposed in 1981 it has held up well despite much effort to produce a counterexample, and it has been
proven that a version holds in any relativistic quantum ﬁeld theory [ 68]. The Bekenstein bound implies a capacity of
2:510106bits in the Milky Way and 8:310121bits in the reachable universe. Brustein and Veneziano propose
another one that is the geometric mean of the Bekenstein and the covariant bound [69].50
Generally these bounds are closely related to the generalised second law of black hole thermodynamics [ 70]. A
heuristic argument for why such bounds are very plausible and appear unavoidable given known physics can be found
inhttps://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3327 . Basically, quantum ﬁelds in a bounded region with enough
spatial variation to encode much information have greater energy and hence greater gravitational mass, and black hole
formation around the region places an upper limit on this capacity.
While we may quibble about which bound is most accurate, physicists would generally agree that the amount of
storeable and retrievable information in a ﬁnite volume with ﬁnite energy is ﬁnite. Were it not so, then one could exploit
the storage capacity to run Maxwell’s demon to provide perpetual motion51.
A.4 Maximum computations / value over time
The physical bound on value might be argued to relate to the amount of computation that is possible, rather than the
maximum storage. Given the temporal and physical bounds above, however, this too is strictly ﬁnite.
There exist limits on how fast distinguishable states (i.e., information) can be changed into other states (i.e., information
processing). The Margolus-Levitin bound [ 71] states that a system with mean energy hEicannot move to another
orthogonal state in less time than
ML=~
2hEi:
This bound implies a bound per quantum bit of 61033operations per second per joule. Given a ﬁnite time and ﬁnite
energy there will be a ﬁnite amount of computation. A related limit is the Mandelstam-Tamm limit linked to total
energy [ 72]; such limits generalize in quantum mechanics [ 73], classical mechanics [ 74], and curved spacetimes [ 75].
These (quantum)limits can be derived straight from the formalism of quantum mechanics [ 76], and to evade them one
needs to evade quantum mechanics.
49This is slightly oversimplifying things: the bound is on the information across the inward light sheet from a particular instant of
the boundary. For practical purposes here it corresponds to the spacelike interior.
50That these bounds involve a spatial factor may inspire the hope that the expansion of the universe would enlarge the storage
capacity. While the total amount of information that could be stored across the universe does increase over time, the accessible
amount from any given point unfortunately declines: the distance to the event horizon shrinks as time goes by and more and more
remote memory storage units disappear.
51Since the demon could retain inﬁnite information, it does not have to pay a negentropy cost to erase past data and could hence
persistently produce a thermodynamic disequilibrium from which energy can be extracted, contra the arguments due to Szilard,
Landauer and Bennett. A world running on continuous physics might allow potentially arbitrarily dense information storage, but
would still not allow actual arbitrarily dense storage due to noise. For example, the Planck scale does not (contrary to many
popularizations) indicate that physics is discrete on sufﬁciently small scales, merely that as-yet unknown quantum gravity will be
needed to describe processes below this scale. If measurement and manipulation below this scale is not possible then physics could
be truly continuous yet only ﬁnite amounts of information can be stored by us.
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This leads to Seth Lloyd’s estimate "The universe can have performed no more than 10120ops on 1090bits." [ 77]
Again, the exact numbers are less relevant to the general argument than that they are bounded: achieving unbounded
computation requires unbounded space, time, and energy52.
Clearly, information storage would be a fundamental limit on compound interest in a given currency, since ﬁat currency
must be tracked somehow53. This isn’t sufﬁcient to limit value in a more general sense, however. Instead, we ask if
information storage can limit value writ large54. For any consequentialist value system, this depends on preferences
about the state of the system, and if the number of possible states is ﬁnite, so is the number of steps in a comparative
value ordering.
A.5 Exponential or Polynomial Growth?
The above discussion assumes that value is related to physical limits, and these limits differ markedly in how they
increase over time and space55. Available space grows only polynomially with time and eventually more slowly, with
matter/energy following suit. However, this allows at least initially exponential growth of storage. The number of
possible states that can be stored is multiplied by 2 for each additional bit that can be stored, and the highest storeable
number doubles: there is an exponential growth of the maximum representable value if it is just represented as that
number, as the number of bits used increase. This may suggest exponential growth of maximal value with energy
and space. Even if cosmological expansion makes the expansion of value-representing systems slow down to an
exponentially declining trickle the representable value can grow at least linearly until the last matter is collected.
If time is included, e.g. by not representing the value explicitly but making it available for comparison through
potentially long computations, then it can grow exponentially in time. Just mapping some static representation xto a
computation C(x)that may be compared to other things is not enough since there are only a given number of bits N
to represent xand there will be at most 2NpossiblexorC(x). However, if we include a clock time we can deﬁne
the computational object C(x;t)in such ways that it can represent values that are larger than the one represented by
C(x;t1)and yet comparable to other objects C(y;t). This in principle allows exponential growth of value until
either the clock runs out56or the conditions for computation being possible cease.
If the value is just determined by t, for example making t-values lexically higher than t1-values, it is possible to
"cheat" by just setting the clock to the maximal possible t. To avoid this, the computation needs to depend in a nontrivial
way on previous steps so that the quickest way of reaching the ultimate timestep is to perform all computations as fast
as they can be done. This replaces the external clock with an internal computational state. Since dissipative operations
are the one cost that will eventually run down any energy reservoir this may lengthen survival signiﬁcantly, especially
since it might be performed by a non-dissipative quantum computation that is only limited by rare tunneling errors (that
occur exponentially rarely as a function of the height and width of the energy barriers used, in turn proportional to the
energy and mass available). Error correction, however, is dissipative: one cannot survive indeﬁnitely on a ﬁnite amount
of energy or negentropy at ﬁnite temperature if errors are corrected.
It hence looks like space, mass/energy, and time each allow exponential representation of value — up to a limit set by
cosmology and the physics of computation.
52Or at least energy, for special cases such as Frank J. Tipler’s collapsing Omega Point cosmology. Theoretical physicists has also
proposed exotic “Bekenstein’s Monster” states where inﬁnite information is stored in ﬁnite volume; such conﬁgurations appear to
inevitably evolve into black holes before any information can escape or be used [78].
53This once again justiﬁes the earlier argument about clear physical limits on economic growth, since any ﬁnite amount of
information storage implies that there will still be some maximum rate of interest in a ﬁnite universe within ﬁnite time that could
apply.
54Note that it may not seem obvious that all information in a philosophical sense requires a physical medium. We admit that care
is needed to ensure that one does not naively over-interpret "information" in the sense used in physics and information theory to
encompass all meanings of the term. [ 79] However, it seems clear, as Krzanowski argues, that even if a form of information does not
exist in a physical sense, that form must still depend on information which does physically exist, and is therefore addressed in our
argument. [80].
55We are grateful to Adam Brown for suggesting this question and initial thoughts about answers.
56Clocks are necessarily physically irreversible and hence dissipative and would have a ﬁnite state space to represent the time
[81, 82].
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PREPRINT - LIMITS TO VALUE , SANDBERG AND MANHEIM (JANUARY 27, 2021)
The functional form of possible value does not change the argument for ﬁnitude, but materially impacts our expectation
for the actual value over time, and is a critical moral question for the long term.
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