vote and he came to power with a big majority of uh a decisive majority he did not need the help of Coalition Partners to form the government right and clearly his policies were good in the first term and that's why he was re-elected with an even bigger majority majority in the in the second term so the policies that he has implemented have been very uh nation-centric National interest oriented and the foreign policy as well so he has focused on the economy he has focused on the military it's taken time it's taken time to get things going because it's a massive Nation 1.3 billion people huge inertia you want to implement policies it's going to take several years for the results to start becoming visible how many years realistically at least five years okay at least five years you you implement a new policy you put a new policy forth you order the bureaucrats to start implementing it they're going to take their own time India's bureaucracy is a legacy of the colonial era it's


is a legacy of the colonial era it's not the most agile bureaucracy in the world and so on so there are all these issues and now we are seeing the results of that you also had the coronavirus now the the entire recession because of that two years we lost two years but now the economy well so overall if you look out look at Mr Modi he is an extremely popular leader India is a vibrant democracy people make these accusations of fascism fascism against the BJP and Mr Modi when you talk about fascism you're talking about Mussolini you're talking about people like Hitler right they put people in concentration camps they massacred lots of people how many people have been massacred in India or put in conscious concentration camps zero right so that accusation is is just to tarnish the image and paint somebody with the with a certain kind of brush Mr Modi is clearly an extremely popular leader and when you talk about democracy people said that India


and when you talk about democracy people said that India is teetering on the on the brink of dictatorship India is the most vibrant democracy in the world let's compare India with the United States the United States is a two-party Nation there's two part it's it's a two-party state it is just one step ahead of communist China which is the one party State it's just one step ahead of North Korea which is the one-party State the us only has two political parties who's going to represent the Native Americans who's going to represent the Hispanics who's going to represent the African-Americans who's going to represent the various minorities that are marginalized in the U.S in India we have political parties that represent every single faction of society in the U.S everything is force fitted into this two-party framework it is artificial I do not consider this to be democracy if you want to consider Any Nation undemocratic or dictatorial it's actually the U.S not India India is a very vibrant democracy yes


not India India is a very vibrant democracy yes it's chaotic yes there are issues but it's a far better democracy it's far better representative of the people in their aspirations especially all the small minorities then anything they the Americans can show us so these accusations of India teetering on the brink of dictatorship they are reasonable laughable ridiculous right so so that's the thing now which which system is good is is dictatorship good is democracy good well I would say that any system is good as long as it produces results right as long as it serves the people and serves the nation in the long term any system is good for the longest time in the world we had monarchies we had Emperors Queens Kings Emperors and they did a good job it's only in the past 70 80 100 years that we've we've been experimenting with democracy and we still have to see how far that experiment succeeds India had India at the birthplace of democracy we had the mahajanapadas


the birthplace of democracy we had the mahajanapadas these self-governing people's republics that go back to the Mahabharata which is several thousand days before today democracy wasn't born in Greece democracy was born in India we had our own form of democracy which would have elected Kings or queens and they could be deposed if they did not perform right so we don't need to be lectured about democracy we don't need they want to teach us what democracy is now is democracy the right thing for India I think we are a democratic Nation it's it's in our it's in our DNA right but maybe this form of democracy may not be the ideal form of democracy maybe in the future we will tweak things and embrace a different form of democracy but it will still be democracy now in the 21st centuries the Nations that will rule the world are the Nations that will implement policies and and adjust to the changing environment rapidly the ones that react the fastest and Implement policies


the ones that react the fastest and Implement policies the fastest in the shortest time these are the Nations that will rule the world can you give an example of the situation like what kind of policy will have to be implemented because of something happening on an international scale right let's say there's a global recession and your economy is suffering with that now let's say you have to change policies maybe you need to change the way your your your banking system works or maybe you need to change the way the interest rates are or also any economic change if you take several months to implement a certain change it may be too late to save your economy but if you can do it immediately with one order and it's done tomorrow that's gonna turn the ship around very fast is Modi the most powerful prime minister our country has seen possibly in history uh maybe not the most powerful because today's geopolitical scenario is that there is a lot of interference within India from external sources what happened in


interference within India from external sources what happened in in the early 1990s the 1992 I think the the uh economic liberalization it came with a whole bunch of caveats so India had nearly gone bankrupt we had less than a week's foreign reserves left maybe three or four days Foreign Exchange Reserve left so we had to take loans from the IMF and the world bank now when you take loans from the IMF in the World Bank they're gonna take a piece of your soul for that in exchange yeah you'll give more than your pound of Flesh so they will tell you they will give the money but they will tell you exactly how to use it you cannot use it for whatever you think is right they will tell you how to use it first of all you open up your economy you have to allow their companies to start investing in in your economy and all kinds of things happen and that's how your country gets penetrated by the various tendrils and roots that come from


the various tendrils and roots that come from the west from the deep State essentially and so on which is America which is America so when you're taking a loan from uh the IMF the World Bank you're actually taking a loan from Big Daddy USA that's what it is and that's when India slowly became compromised from within there are various political parties that do enjoy patronage from other countries they used to uh enjoy patronage from the USSR the USSR dissolved it broke up in the early 90s then they were looking for a new Big Daddy I'm not naming anybody but you know it would have happened so then they found this new Big Daddy in the U.S and the US is is uh well known for for spreading democracy across the world in a variety of ways sometimes the bomb democracy into a country with the with bombs sometimes they infiltrate democracy into your country and what it means and what they mean by democracy is is you do what they tell


mean by democracy is is you do what they tell you to do and you run your country the way they think is right depending on their whims and fancies so India at that time became compromised and and since it has been more and more compromised so right now there is a huge amount of external interference within India sub-national diplomacy and what not what does that mean it means that they will in the the Americans will engage with politicians in India not at the central level but at state level and even smaller than that and that is essentially you know trying to compromise your country and you know try to create factions within the nation and all that like it's a modern version of divide and Rule its divide and Rule it's it's the 21st century of divide and Rule that's what it is so they've learned from the from the UK the U.S Empire is the Anglo-Saxon Empire the capital shifted from from London to Washington DC but it's the same entity essentially right so that's what


it's the same entity essentially right so that's what they're doing so Mr Modi has to contend with these issues India is compromised India has lots of you know General spoke about a 2.5 2.5 front war that if India has to go to war with China Pakistan will also get involved and there's gonna be a uh one more front within India so one is China One is Pakistan and half is within India wow yeah so 2.5 front War so that's what he meant by the internal problems within India which have been created by outside forces and there's a whole bunch of issues within that that's why Mr Modi is has to contend with those things when it comes to when it came to somebody like Mrs Indira Gandhi she did not have that much of problems within India so she was able to be more decisive she was able to buy for kid Pakistan and in free Bangladesh for instance yeah so she was able to pursue a more muscular foreign policy I'm not saying Mr Modi


muscular foreign policy I'm not saying Mr Modi is not pursuing a muscular foreign policy but Mr Modi is playing the long game uh he's playing the game I think that thing shopping had advocated hide and bide hide your capabilities and buy your time and work hard and strengthen yourself so maybe that is the right thing for India to do right now and get richer get richer that's the whole deal they get richer so that's what India is doing right now okay uh let's talk about uh the current government a little bit more uh when we say Modi do we really mean Modi or do you think we have our own version of I don't want to call it a deep state but there has to be a sort of think tank this is a part of it legendary figure from uh probably India's modern history people haven't heard about him uh amitsha is obviously there it's the BJP top leadership uh I'd love to know from you because we are assuming that BJP is probably going to be


we are assuming that BJP is probably going to be in power the next 10 years who will be like the next PM of the country according to you without getting into National politics and I'd also kind of reframe that question as who do you like to see as an X PM from an international perspective the three candidates maybe four uh that keep coming up in discussions around Politics on Nathan Curry uh Yogi yogiji uh and maybe outside of the BJP there's Raul uh do you have any opinion on these four Gents uh if you want to talk about the next prime minister see Mr Modi has this unofficial rule that once you reach the age of 75 you've got to step back from any leadership position and take an advisory position right so Mr Modi is I I don't know 71 72 72 years old maybe so he's got another three years of active political life uh that he can choose to continue but I I it looks like he may step down at the age of once he reaches the age


down at the age of once he reaches the age of 75. so that may be after the 2024 election assuming that he wins that election so then the question is who's the next PM like you asked so what sort of PM would we like to see we would like to say somebody who is relatively younger right if you're younger you have more energy so the uh gentleman that you mentioned uh Mr kgwal I'm not sure what his age is Mr Gandhi is obviously youth hiken then we have um Mr Yogi yogiji and Mr Curry Mr Amit Shah I think it's either Mr Amit Char Mr Yogi in case Mr Modi wins the next election and then he decides to step down at the age of 75. it could be a toss-up between Mr amitsha and Mr Yogi so Mr Yogi has now uh already got considerable experience of of administering and governing a massive State like uttar Pradesh whose population is comparable to the population of the US yeah so it could


to the population of the US yeah so it could be Mr Yogi or it could be Mr mitcha because he has a lot of experience in these uh administrative and governance matters he also is the home minister of India he understands the problems and obviously he would understand geopolitics as well because if you're dealing with home you're also dealing with external issues that are tangentially connected to home so I would say it could be a toss-up between Mr amitsha and Mr Yogi and I would expect that Mr Modi will take the call as to who is to be the next prime minister when it comes to external uh politicians like Mr kejriwal and Mr Gandhi well I don't have much of an opinion about them apart from not considering them to be very strong leaders because they well um yeah I haven't seen that sort of leadership potential in the two of them I'm sure Mr kejriwal is doing a fantastic job governing Delhi I'm sure it's always visible Mr


governing Delhi I'm sure it's always visible Mr Rahul Gandhi has never been a chief minister or any such thing so we don't know what his capabilities are like I'm sure he is very capable but he has never demonstrated that thus far so that's why I I cannot really pass judgment on Mr Gandhi um wow this podcast began as geopolitics update but I think we're going to Rebrand this as an India and geopolitics uh kind of podcast um the criticism that the government gets on a national as well as an international level is its treatment of minorities and there are certain narratives being given to the West uh as Joe Rogan says most of Western media is very left-wing minded so they will kind of project The Narrative that they want uh their people to see in terms of for the longest time people that India was a country full of snake Charmers and uh you know kind of that Aladdin kind of world uh mud houses Etc and a huge part of


uh mud houses Etc and a huge part of India's rural but we don't have snake Charmers we actually have smartphones and YouTube and uh TRS in like these rural places as well so the West has a very morphed image of India since years I believe and this comes from my perspective of having a lot of friends who live abroad most Indians that live abroad get a very skewed perspective of India uh they think we're living in a land where uh Muslims Christians Sikhs are prosecuted when you live here I mean and you and me are Hindu males so we probably don't have a right to comment on what these people go through for example in some ways maybe you and me are the white males of India uh so I'm I I need to mention that here as well when I do speak to my Muslim friends my Christian friends they do feel a sense of um a lack of ease my question when I hear what they have to say is have you seen the social dilemma


to say is have you seen the social dilemma social dilemmas or documentary on Netflix which talks about how algorithms can really skew your perspective of reality social media algorithms so if the algorithm gets to know that you belong to this minority you belong to this group of people uh maybe you would lean towards the left maybe so let me show you more left-wing uh videos posts that will shift you even further down the left and the easiest way to manipulate human uh Minds is emotion especially the emotion of fear that's my question and again I'm asking you this from a learning perspective like do you have a perspective on this in terms of what's your response to all the brown people living abroad Indians pakistanis Sri Lankans about what this religious reality of India is in saying that our economy is booming it's growing at a crazy Pace we've historically always been prone to divide and Rule mentalities um you know and our enemies will always try bringing in those divide


and our enemies will always try bringing in those divide and Rule mentalities if we actually give in to it and start uh giving fuel to this Hindu Muslim rivalry fire it's going to probably harm the economy in the long term we all know it uh the country needs to like come together and work towards like a stronger economy in my opinion which is why podcasts like this which do affect thought which do affect National narratives are important because the news will tell you one side of the story but let's talk about the 360 degree perspective sir let's do that so let's talk about our minorities let's let's look at the India's track record with minorities when the Arabic conquest of Persia happened the Persians were within two or three decades almost completely converted to the religion of the Arabs some Persians our Brethren and sister in decided that they they sought to preserve their culture their religions were australianism where did they go to safeguard their religion they came


did they go to safeguard their religion they came to India they escaped by ships because the Arabs did not have a good Navy or any any Navy at all so these people from Persia they came out of Persia they escaped from Persia and they immigrated to India they did not go to Africa they did not go to any other nation in the Mediterranean in Europe wherever they came to India why was that because they knew they would be welcomed in India and they were indeed welcomed in India they were given land to settle down in in Western India in Gujarat they were allowed to keep practicing their religion freely there was no compulsion upon them there was no tax upon them for for practicing a foreign religion or any such thing the only thing was that they were told to assimilate into Indian society and adopt the local language only the language nothing else and they the zorostrings the Pharisees they are among the best performing and most prosperous minorities in India they have


and most prosperous minorities in India they have never ever been persecuted even once in the past 1000 300 to 400 years that they've lived in India let's talk about Jews Jews also came to India nearly 2000 years ago even today we have Jewish communities in India they have India is the only nation that has never ever been anti-semitic anti-semitic there has never been a single instance of persecution of Jews in India they have lived in India as a small minority for almost 2000 years and they are still practicing the religion many of them chose to go go to immigrate to Israel and do Aliyah Etc but they have had excellent living standards in India they have always been respected and cherished and nobody has ever made an attempt to uh force them to to change their lifestyle or it's a thing talk about Tibet when the Chinese invaded occupied Tibet where did the Tibetans go they came to India India always had an open open door policy for the


India always had an open open door policy for the Tibetans they were allowed they were welcomed into India and they the only place where Tibetan culture still exists is India Northern India and various other pockets of offered Tibetan uh settlement in India so India has always welcomed minorities India has always been generous magnanimous and and India has always cherished its minorities when it comes to Muslims are there any concentration camps when we talk about the Chinese do we I think the whole world knows what the Chinese are doing to their Muslims in in xinjiang there are concentration camps maybe more than a million Muslims are being interned there they are being re-educated they are being forced to eat pork and God knows what does India ever do that there are tensions from time to time these are left over from history because of the past 1000 years it's it's it's been a terrible history but there is no systematic operational persecution of Muslims none whatsoever and there are narratives that are


none whatsoever and there are narratives that are being spun to make it look like Muslims are being oppressed I think Muslims have far more rights in India than in Pakistan ahmadiyas are not considered to be non-muslims in India the pakistanis do that they consider Amadeus to be non-muslims for it's a certain sect uh even I'm not sure what exactly their belief system is but the pakistanis considered them to be non-muslims there was this very famous Pakistani physicist uh what's his name uh salaam Abdullah he was an ahmadiya I believe uh it's one of those sects yeah and he was he won the Nobel Prize but the pakistanis did not celebrated that right no such thing is there in India whether you're Shia whether you're SUNY whether you're ahmadiya whether you're is whatever else everybody is accepted there is no discrimination whatsoever when it comes to Christians what sort of living standards or status do Christians have in the Gulf how


or status do Christians have in the Gulf how are they treated in Iran how are they treated in Pakistan vis-a-vis how are they treated in India India is the best place for minorities minorities have actually more rights in India than the majority they if the Hindus are the majority Hindus have less rights than minorities minorities get special treatment they get more privileges than Hindus minorities whether it is Christians whether it is Muslims they have the right to administer their places of worship and the government doesn't interfere there but the government doesn't allow Hindus the right to administer their places of worship so minorities have first class status in India most Hindus essentially have second class status in the nation I think I think everyone knows this so this narrative that is being spun that Muslims are being oppressed in India or Christians are facing problems these are lies there is no such thing I know Christians and Muslims I'm sure you know Christian Muslim they may have certain perceptions but


know Christian Muslim they may have certain perceptions but have they personally ever faced any problems I don't think so right yeah I I just thinking this is coming from being a content creator for seven years fear is one of those emotions that spreads very fast in the world of media and if big media houses want to grow their numbers they'll often use fear-mongering as a way to achieve their results yes um even that small Narrative of a minority being or president India will be blown out of proportion by media houses in saying that while we're talking about this uh sort of EX right-wing extremism narrative that's probably fed to minorities on social media I'm sure there are there is a vice versa version of that which means that um maybe if you're a deeply right-wing minded person you're fed certain narratives on social media too instill even more hate towards minorities and I've seen people like that even on the show who have these like really skewed beliefs about how minorities are


these like really skewed beliefs about how minorities are terrible for India I think the truth here will be found when you take a step back and understand the times we live in which are so heavily dictated by social media algorithms and WhatsApp indeed which is dictated by Big Daddy USA again yes so they have ways of essentially creating a certain mood in a certain demographic or maybe two moods yeah and pushing them away from each other yeah opposite opposing moods opposing narratives so when this guy Edward Snowden defected from the US and I think he sought refuge in the in Russia yes he uh disclosed the existence of something called prism was this top secret hyper-secret program that collates data points from all across social media from all your cell phone signals from everything from all the signals in the world and it can give you an overall map of what's going on in each nation and they they had some and one of the countries of particular interest for the US was was India so even


particular interest for the US was was India so even in 2010 11 12 somewhere around that they had a significant amount of interest in India and today you have all these social media signals social media has really taken off since then so it's very easy to Trend certain hashtags and completely color and change the mood of a Nation or a certain Community within the nation at at the moment's notice the truth is that Indians are all one we are all one people we are the same DNA with the same blood Muslims are our brothers and sisters Christians are our brothers and sisters I believe that even the pakistanis and the Afghans and the bangladeshis ETC Sri Lankans they are all the same people as us we have been divided artificially the West is great at divide and Rule and they seek to continue doing that in order to play that geopolitical games we have to understand this and we need to all realize that we are the same people no matter what religion we practice and we


same people no matter what religion we practice and we need to work together to take the nation forward in the right direction no the actual game here is money yeah and uh monetary growth is why probably the enemies of India as a country are trying to stop India's economic growth the easiest way to stop it is create internal conflict uh by kind of manipulating social media algorithms etcetera Etc India cannot have as glorious history as it's had in the last 75 years if it wasn't for apj Abdul Kalam if it wasn't for you know just generally all of India's minorities working with India's so-called majority which is Hindus we have to come together for economic growth uh it's it's been the lesson that we should have learned from history because divide and Rule is a mentality used by external powers to completely divide us uh in saying that I just hope that this one little bit of this podcast helps kind of uh give out an emotion of Brotherhood of Sisterhood of


out an emotion of Brotherhood of Sisterhood of safety to India's minorities I don't know if it will but uh I sincerely hope that it does because if if by chance even hypothetically if there was ever a concentration camp kind of angle uh an actual fascism kind of angle you have a huge section of the majority which would actually reward just out of humanism indeed because at all humanitarianism whatever it's called because at the end of the day I personally feel uh Indians in general are some of the most empathetic nicest people in the world I'm not talking about Hindus Muslims Christians or Indians in general yes uh and there has been Brotherhood there has been uh good energy in this country if you see it from a historical perspective people will stand up and Revolt people won't accept that level of prosecution at all uh and most of all we have a lot more to lose because of that from a geopolitical perspective then see some extremist has to gain uh we


then see some extremist has to gain uh we need to make the money over the next 10 20 30 years and we're only going to make the money when that 11 player team has Muslims Christians six Hindus everyone working together uh money is the name of the game so uh keeping that mind will move on to like the next part of this podcast uh how do we make the money like according to you um is it just manufacturing is it export is it agriculture uh what is the economics of this actual game to become richer when you spoke about 2032-33 as the Tipping Point I'm assuming that so much wealth gets created that it's the same logic as you becoming rich in life your wealth will compound for you after a point is it the same logic on like a macro economic scale because I've not studied economics so I'd actually like to know your perspectives on it so what needs to happen is that everybody should needs to start producing something and contributing to nation building nation building


producing something and contributing to nation building nation building is the name of the game the more you build the nation the most more prosperous the nation becomes we need to build Railways we need to build highways we need to build infrastructure we need to build more buildings we have such crumbling dilapidated infrastructure we need to recreate that we need to invest in all of that and that will create more employment that will create more need for cement more need for coal more need for steel more need for all these things for all the all the raw materials that go into creating infrastructure and of course manufacturing is also a major component that because we can export goods that other nations need and we can get money in return so it's it's a all-around a 360 Degrees development perspective when the Sendai earthquake happened in 2011 in Japan that was a disaster for the country but it was also an opportunity to rebuild the nation that can Spurt of the economy I'm not sure if they did it


the economy I'm not sure if they did it properly and if it if it revived the economy or not I don't think it happened but but something like that is actually a great opportunity to revive the economy because it's a huge demand for rebuilding that creates a big demand for raw materials it creates a big demand for new jobs people get busy there's a whole lot of economic activity and India is a country that needs a whole lot of that at a massive scale right so we need to all of our cities are essentially crumbling right all our highways I mean lots of new highways are being built right now I think about 30 or 40 kilometers per day are being built right now so that is the right uh direction that we are going in but a whole lot more needs to be done we have one of the biggest Railway networks in the country we can transform all of that into high-speed Railways and we can double triple quadruple quintuple the railway coverage of India because we need


quintuple the railway coverage of India because we need that because we need that and we need to build many more airports we need to connect all the smaller two Tire second Tire third tires it is with each other through through air and there's so much more what actually happens through connectivity connectivity means you have more access to the nation to other parts of the nation there is people-to-people contacts and you can go and do more business right if you can you can do business you can go and do a job in another another part of the country and so on again the keyword is collaboration collaboration see Japan was destroyed in 1945. two Atomic tests were done on the population of Japan Japan was in Ruins at the end of World War II how did the rebuild the nation so fast High-Speed Rail it's it it connected the nation and that's how all the all the business was sparked off because Japan uh became a massive economic and uh technological power it was all because of connectivity because people


power it was all because of connectivity because people are able to make to get uh from one place to another very rapidly and that connected the nation again and that's what's part of their the the major uh growth of Japan's economy so interconnectivity is the key if a nation is disconnected you don't even have unity and you cannot transact business with various parts of the nation let's say you have coal in one state and you have a demand for coal or steel or whatever far off you need to be able to transport that rapidly you need uh Goods trains you need People to People contacts and all that so all of this really Spurs of the economy so that's what India needs to build and of course manufacturing is also a key because China used that to become an economic major power India can replicate that does it apply to this decade as well it does it does it needs to happen right now I think it is happening and it's it's it's picking up pace right now what actually makes


it's picking up pace right now what actually makes uh Manufacturing in China that cheap it's basically that from a business perspective that people from other countries say okay if I want to manufacture something let me manufacture it in China it's cheaper one is definitely the size of their population which has now started to dwindle a little bit the population is aging it's dying off which means India will be the most populous country in the world does that give us the ability to bring the cheapest form of manufacturing for other countries and if yes uh is that the actual way to go which is supplemented by the connectivity stuff you spoke about right manufacturing is the way to go the Chinese population is now aging because they had this one child policy India did not have that so Mr Modi speaks about India's demographic dividend which is pretty much true we have a very young population a very energetic population it's a growing population even now so that can be utilized in order to to to fuel India's economic growth


in order to to to fuel India's economic growth so manufacturing is something that takes time to mature the Chinese started the manufacturing process in the late 1970s early 1980s initially Chinese products were very bad they had a very bad reputation but by the 2000s and 2010s they had achieved the level of maturity where they did not need any more Western technology they had already absorbed all the Western technology and then they were they were able to iteratively improve upon that and today Chinese manufacturing is at a high level they manufacture almost anything that you want them to manufacture you say I want this they'll say I will do it so India will take a little bit of time to reach there but we need to start I'm sure we have started now maybe Made in India make in India started in the in the first term of the Modi government and now I think it's kind of slowly taking off we have semiconductor manufacturing plans that are coming up in various places and a whole lot of other stuff is


various places and a whole lot of other stuff is happening we have this major uh transshipment Port that's coming up in the great nicobar Island and lots of lots of stuff is happening that's not manufacturing that's that's trade but all of the pieces are now being put in place and we could be on the on the on the verge of a big takeoff this is why governments need to be in power for the long terms yes to see long-term economic and geopolitical change um kind of a rookie question here do you feel there's a game of intellect in making yourself a richer country and the second supplemental question is I mean this country is a country full of intellectuals that's a global repute as well like you know we're the CEOs of countries etc etc um don't you think that there's really smart people like yourself like someone with your knowledge levels on a uh kind of governing level as well like I'm sure if we bring Ajit do all on the podcast he would


bring Ajit do all on the podcast he would give us 20 podcasts just like you did there has to be more people like that uh do you think that that is the case do you think that there's really smart people governing this country and they already know these things that we're discussing or other people in the government who are studying podcasts of abhiji chowder and getting inputs this is something I've always wondered that I've done about 350 broadcasts with some really smart Indians jump you're like right up there especially when it comes to the information in your mind and then you meet people at parties you meet people in social situations I've met politicians and I think to myself that are there really intelligent people at the top and does intellect play a role in economic growth very raw question but I just wonder what you think so when you are running a company if you if you are successful it's because you hire the right people the best people similarly in a government if you do really well


people similarly in a government if you do really well and if you take the nation forward in the right direction it's only because you've got the right people in place in the right places right I think there are lots of really intelligent people in the government let's give let's take one example Dr s Jai Shankar who's the current external office Minister I don't think he needs to learn anything from Abhijit chowder nothing whatsoever I need to learn a lot from him right he is a career Diplomat currently I think he's the most impactful Diplomat on the globe is a very high energy person he he interacts with so many people on a daily basis of high-ranking diplomats and he is carrying Indian diplomacy forward is putting across the message message of India and and and he's ensuring that the entire world understands what India's position is geopolitically what India's national interest is and there is no compromise that is being made in these diplomatic Maneuvers vis-away India's national interests


these diplomatic Maneuvers vis-away India's national interests long-term national interests so Mr Dr Jai Shankar is I think one of the most brilliant diplomas in the world and he is currently the foreign minister similarly we have the right people in place in other ministers as well we you spoke about Mr gadkari Mr gadkari is in charge of uh the infrastructure development highways and all that just look at the pace at which highways are being built 30 40 50 kilometers a day in India so I think Mr Modi knows what kind of people to pick and place in the in the in the in the appropriate places and that's what's being done now when it comes to intellect India like you said is is a is a civilization full of intellects for every ramanujan we discovered there are 100 ramanujans we have lost so we need to create mechanisms catch the intellect you may see one but there are there's a whole lot that we are missing right now because of the problems


that we are missing right now because of the problems in our system the education system is terrible and so on and so forth there is a lack a lack of Merit in the education system it's all it's about reservation not about the how how intelligent and how good you you are and how will you perform and all that so these issues are there but if you can get the system right this country will take off because we have the intellect maybe we've got the system right with cheap internet maybe maybe maybe it's too early to say in terms of that experiment I think jio kicked off in 2016 which is what like six years six years yeah too short a time period but I will tell you that you go meet rural Indians they're not the rural Indians of 10 years ago yes they know a lot more maybe that experiment has kicked off but uh coming back to uh Mr jayashankar I'd love for you to relay actually what AC has picked up from what have you picked up from him like oh


from what have you picked up from him like oh I can't imagine what you've picked up from another human being because we we pick up a lot of from you so what have you picked up from him so I call this the Jai Shankar Doctrine which is an extension of the Modi Doctrine so the Modi Doctrine is about taking India forward with India's national Interest being Paramount so the Jai Shankar Doctrine is how India is going to interact and interface with the world especially the major Powers especially with the West right so there are certain tenets that this Doctrine has certain pillars the first pillar is the assertion that the West stole 45 trillion dollars plus from India and what is the West it is the British Empire and its extension which is the US Empire as well the US is an extension of the British Empire that is a clear Express uh thing that is that Dr Jai Shankar has spoken about multiple times right so the West has been the operation of India for a very long time and


the operation of India for a very long time and if India is in the position that it is today you know third world nation of very low per capita GDP Etc it's because of the West secondly there is the explicit assertion that Russia is not part of the West and therefore Russia is was never involved in the oppression of India right then there is the idea that India is going to pursue an independent foreign policy India will cooperate fully with the West when it comes to Economic Development activities but there will be issue based cooperation on strategic and National Security matters issue based each issue will be looked upon individually the main Pirates and demerits will be weighed up and then India will make its own choice independently India does not need foreign guidance or interference in these matters and so on so forth so there is a very clear foreign policy that Dr jayashankar is pursuing and that is clearly an extension of the overall Modi Doctrine because that's what that's the vision that Mr


Doctrine because that's what that's the vision that Mr Modi clearly has we can now see it but that's the direction at which he has been taking the nation forward and for finally we have a foreign minister who can properly uh enunciate that and and explain that and put it across to all the counterparts that he has across the world is a very active foreign minister and we are seeing a very clear geopolitical strategy through Dr Jai Shankar so keeping in mind Dr jayashankar's reality one slightly more layered question what do you think his motivation is in terms of when we're sitting here on this podcasting room we're talking about making India a richer country a geopolitical force same intentions on his end he's very aware of these things about the 2032-2033 marks if yes I would also like to ask you do you think there's a deeper layer does he have plans for the 2040s as well could he be one of India's next prime ministers uh see Dr jashankar is


next prime ministers uh see Dr jashankar is a retired Diplomat so I'm sure he's above 60. he must be in his mid 60s 60s most likely uh so he clearly understands geopolitics as a career Diplomat he had to uh he had to put forward the various policies of the various governments right he had to essentially be an agent of these governments on the in the Diplomatic sphere for once he has been empowered to to not uh you know not indulge in politics and just deal with the national interest so that is a very good thing now is he possibly a next prime minister it's too early to tell uh being a good Diplomat doesn't necessarily mean that you can be a good prime minister or a good administrator when it comes to administrating administering and governing a nation there's a whole lot more than diplomacy you have to actually deal with politics diplomats don't deal with national politics and state level politics and all that prime ministers


and state level politics and all that prime ministers have to do that they have to juggle a whole lot of political Egos and God knows what so I am not sure if a diplomat is equipped or trained to do that sort of thing so I am not saying that Dr jashankar could not do that but I personally have not thought about seeing him as a potential future Prime Minister okay uh I mean one last question AC would you want to get into politics at any find no absolutely not I'm very politics is a Cutthroat game I'm I'm good as an observer as a Hospital analyst or whatever I don't know what what you want to call me but I certainly do not want to get into politics you'd make a very strong uh part of an Advisory board for the government for sure I'm sure there's people who have their eyes on you and you will get some sort of job offers going forward would you consider taking it up if it was in geopolitical interest if it


up if it was in geopolitical interest if it serves the nation I would um man if I was a the PM I would want you like by my side AC but right now I'm just a podcaster and you're always on our side another epic episode of TRS thank you sir I think it's time to move into uh sequel episode to this one which is the geopolitical update any last message for the listeners uh keep your eyes on on global politics on global geopolitics always see the big picture and look at the long term don't look at things from on our day-to-day week-to-week basis look at things from a year to your perspective and try to learn history if you want to really learn geopolitics and understand geopolitics we will see you again so thank you for another epic show thank you very much that's it I'm not going to talk about what I feel about this episode what I will say is that the three episodes we recorded after this were as heavy were as informative as impactful so


were as heavy were as informative as impactful so make sure you watch out for them also make sure you follow us on Spotify every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world AC will return on the runway show very soon keep following because great content has only just begun especially if you're an international listener go check out the bank that we've created on this channel on Spotify if you're an audio listener because this is an informative podcast and we're only just starting out boyakasha [Music] thank you


see the the most dangerous Fighter the guy who's intelligent and motivated and if he's trained and Unleashed on a Terrain of his own choosing he's the most dangerous man and the special the American Special Forces said right man in the right job is the most devastating weapon and the Tamil tiger was exactly that and at that stage the Accord had been signed so hand them over to us the Sri Lankan Army the LTT said don't do it they'll be tortured they'll be killed but because they got a God had been signed it was decided to hand them over to the Sri Lankan army they asked that a last meal be given to the boys and they passed cyanide capsules inside and all 17 of them committed suicide shoot on their cyanide capsules I know your problem Khan you've been you've been attacked by a leopard he says oh forget that and I said no no no no listen to me that leopard because you [ __ ] us you [ __ ] don't


you [ __ ] us you [ __ ] don't come down and fight you bastard are sitting up there or hanging around in the Villages we've trained these leopards they're trained by us now these leopards are going to come hunting for you military themed episodes of the ranveer show are always well received this one features one of the most eloquent military veterans that I have met he's one of the best speakers and when it comes to military podcasts para SF podcast which is the special forces wing of the Indian army the badass of podcasts are my absolute favorites I'm not going to talk too much about this one I'll let you dive straight in I will say that TRS is a Spotify exclusive every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world you know that if it's a para SF podcast there's going to be talk about combat there's going to be talk about mentality there's gonna be talking about wild animal encounters Insurgency and


be talking about wild animal encounters Insurgency and there's also going to be some emotional talk this one was an emotionally charged episode that I enjoyed recording very much and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did thank you [Music] and other special forces themed episode um honored to have you but I also feel at the same time that this is going to be a slightly different Special Forces themed episode how are you sir thank you very much very happy to be on your show okay I hope it's interesting yeah I feel there's so many experiences you've had which we're going to unpack over the course of this podcast and hopefully the next one as well um there's just something different about Special Forces officers uh in my eyes as a civilian or rather as a podcast who's done a few Special Forces themed episodes usually Special Forces officers are not necessarily looking for growth as the human Chase they're looking for exploration as the human Jays and I feel every human has a


the human Jays and I feel every human has a human Chase While most of the world looks for growth of some form spiritual growth or intellectual growth or material growth Special Forces veterans look for exploration of life uh is that a fair observation so uh Runway I can easily say that when people volunteered for the Special Forces at that stage I'm certain 100 wanted to treat it as a profession and not as a career and there's a huge difference here to the profession of arms it was not a career when you when you use the word career then you do a lot of things to further that so that you can go up the ladder all of us were there because we wanted to be there not because we wanted to become generals or brigadiers but because we wanted to do things that special forces was offering which is which is going out doing unorthodox soldiering a tough life the camaraderie it's raining the experiences so if you went to SF unit you would find and this


you went to SF unit you would find and this goes for the men also but officers certainly it was a monthly collection of adventurers Romantics eccentrics Misfits All Sorts I find I've noticed this as well I'm sure I'm telling you outside I mean you should be on this special forces selection committee you you know them backwards now and you can see there each of them is a character each of them is a character each of them is a character which is what excites me about Special Forces podcasts because usually we get molds of people with you guys each person is a mold each guy is a character and they they appreciated it they encouraged it but certainly I'd say if you want to use the word exploration they have diverse interests they wanted to push the limits they wanted to discover themselves and they were certainly different you know certainly different you know I can't say because I have no data on it but I'm sure if you saw some of the guys


I'm sure if you saw some of the guys who left the army and got into CV Street uncertain 90 to 95 percent have done exceedingly well in city street what is that for listeners just to give them context this is I mean you know left the army and went into the Civil in life I mean it just shows the adaptability which was one of the qualities required you know like the Chinese say a good bamboo bends With the Wind um most of them have done well I've got I've got friends you know a couple of them who started companies sold them off they're millionaires these are special forces guys my badge large companies when did you serve so oh I'm an old Soldier now I was commissioned 89 88 actually you know we are one of the rare Special Forces veterans where I'm not intimidated at the start like I'd love to hear that yeah what you spoke about everyone being unique you're not like the other folks I've met I love each of them in a different way


met I love each of them in a different way honestly they totally love you no no but you know the point is this is the little joke I had with my ex NDA friends in the unit bulk of the officer X NDS I'm a direct entry I'm a Delhi University man and I joined for a specific purpose because I wanted to prove a point to my father who's also exami so uh the moment I joined in the academy and there was this grind that they were putting you into get you into that format of what a soldier needs to do think behave in the back of my mind I have to keep telling myself I'm a civilian someday I'm going to be a civilian I'm here for the adventure I'm here for the romance I'm here to prove a point to my father keep that Delhi University side alive and I think the moment I left you know that civil inside has sort of emerged so perhaps I don't come across that much of a soldier and of


come across that much of a soldier and of course the SF also gave you a chance to keep long hair keep a beard unconventional soldiering discipline was more internal than imposed from outside unconventional soldiering for unconventional missions absolutely absolutely for someone who is probably tuning into a special forces podcast for the first time would you like to shed some light on what unconventional missions even means you know Runway it could be anything so there was there was a whole set of conventional missions that you trained for I.E and I'm talking in those days we had three units when I joined there were three Commando units now you call them Special Forces and now there's a whole bunch of them they converted the parachute battalions also I'll give you the civilian version of it correct me if I'm wrong basically Army Navy Air Force have their Commando units which are slightly higher efficiency soldiers and trained with supplemental uh training courses that constitutes the basics of Special Forces Paris of


constitutes the basics of Special Forces Paris of army Marcos for Navy Garuda for Air Force and I believe now there are even more special forces regiments like the NSG uh but I will let you go on from here so yeah so so the tasking the conventional tasking is different the conventional tasking could be anything which is Behind Enemy Lines in a conventional War it could be hitting a enemy headquarters it could be blowing up a dam it could be blowing up an aqueduct train raid assassination whatever and this is in a conventional War in an unconventional mode which is where we've been engaged most of the time bulk of the experience the SF units have gained uh has been in Kashmir Northeast I had the opportunity of course of going to Sri Lanka but the bulk of the experience now is in counter instancy in your own country so there is a conventional role and in the unconventional in within the Ambit of what is happening within the country SF units are thrown and


happening within the country SF units are thrown and those missions are Ambush raid you know some of those things hmm um of Kashmir the Northeast and Sri Lanka which one I mean I don't even know how you can like gauge this but is it a fair question to you if I ask you which one was the most challenging well of course it is I mean you can uh Sri Lanka really oh so and I can say it with complete confidence if you ask this with any of those who served in Sri Lanka and had the experience of serving in the Northeast and in jnk and I served in jnk for a very long time it broke my back you know three and a half years they will still tell you it's Sri Lanka for the simple reason you went uh to a country where you didn't know the terrain you didn't have the weaponry you were fighting against a bunch of people a gorilla Warfare who could mix around with the civilians um it was a very


around with the civilians um it was a very difficult place your mindset you're not tuned you're not trained and every infantry battalion that went in uh suffered casualties very heavy casualties my own unit which is an SF unit lost three officers killed five captains wounded 32 other ranks when I joined senior Majors were going into operation and everybody lost people they they shattered the myth of the martial races the Sikhs you name it they would mole you they were killers see the the most dangerous Fighter the guy who's intelligent and motivated and if he's trained and Unleashed on a Terrain of his own choosing he's the most dangerous man and the special the American Special Forces said the right man in the right job is the most devastating weapon and the Tamil tiger was exactly that when he used this word motivated in terms of combat what does that do to a human's mind if you say that okay my mind is motivated within combat does that make


okay my mind is motivated within combat does that make you do riskier Maneuvers um more dangerous moves like what is it when we if you're not motivated you are going to hold yourself back in combat simple and in Sri Lanka everybody was Raising this issue at some stage or the other what are we doing here what are the Indian why are we here and there was this big dog that they were always supporting them I hit a camp and this is a known fact I hit a camp uh where there were receipts of uh their casualties being treated in some clinic in rameshwaram they were movie tickets they had their safe houses in South India the role was supporting them everybody knew this double game happening and at the same stage you were getting mauled so they were they were what you call radio petrols happening the things that you see in the Vietnam you sent a petrol the petrol go out 200 meters from the perimeter sit in the bush fake some radio messages come back why


in the bush fake some radio messages come back why take a chance so you know it pushed the Army to do these things because it was such a dangerous place you stepped out you stepped out of the post and and you didn't know you would come back in one piece and I personally I have the the concentration of a butterflyer very poor concentration and focus Sri Lanka is the only place where and I still remember when you stepped out of the post till you reached the Ambush site all your senses were working oh all your senses were working you couldn't you couldn't let your guard down they would hit you um so could you give some geopolitical slash political uh background on the situation I'm assuming that this is about 93.94 roughly that time uh what was happening with this whole Tamil tiger situation and why were people even riled up in the first place because we have a lot of gen Z listeners were born after 2005. no they don't know a thing yeah


after 2005. no they don't know a thing yeah so I don't know I think my second book was uh on Sri Lanka from about early 80s the the cinema and the tamils had been at loggerheads the Tamil was always treated as a second class citizen now you know in a nutshell that Tamil Zoo went in the last 100 years were taken by the Brits for rubber plantations there were tamils who had been there from the Chola times you know they were the old tamils nevertheless they were treated as second-class Citizens and they had been resistance from time to time and at some stage a whole bunch of these Temple parties came up eprlf LTT plot etc etc um prabhakran was the head of LTT and he was the most aggressive pugnacious by Nature and at that stage a whole bunch of these people under pressure of the genocide sort of genocide being committed by the Sri Lankan forces coming into Tamil Nadu and there was a fair in Tamil


Nadu and there was a fair in Tamil Nadu that there could be a voice to carve out a separate Elam including parts of Tamil Nadu and stuff like that so and Ramadan is a big state and therefore it was decided at some stage that the Indians have to intervene and instead of directly intervening they decided to train the tamils arm the tamils and a whole bunch of them turned up for training in camps spread across Tamil Nadu um and one of them was at a place called Chakrata this is up in the hills next to dehradun really that far up yes and this is the interesting part and I say this in my book also the interesting part is my father was posted there and that was his last posting in Chakrata in Chakrata if I can digress a little more now Chakrata has a base it's called establishment 22. it was set up in 60 after the 62 War funded by the by the CIA to train


War funded by the by the CIA to train Tibetan gorillas these are people who had migrated cross the border and come into India mostly comes from Eastern Tibet so what is the trend like it's like it's a it's a calm it's a Compass you know the Eastern Tibet area Fighters basically so it was decided that the Americans would fund the Indian Indian army would train them and they would be sent back for sabotage spying Etc back into Tibet it still is a very secretive place they haven't developed Chakrata it's at seven thousand feet it's a nice Hill station but still a single Road and it's not by Design it's by it's not by default it's by design that the government doesn't allow anything to come up and from time to time that's school which sustaining Tibetans was used for training all sorts of unsavory characters in these sub-confidents I you know it seen these baluchis whoever I needed to be trained could be sent there one


I needed to be trained could be sent there one corner tucked up in the hills and then at some stage they started sending B tamils in the the senior leadership of the LTT were trained there but who were the trainers Indian army officers so this is an official yeah okay and the interesting is thing is I was about to join the Army and I'd come back from college and my father was posted there and I recall uh every weekend because we were settling down in dehradun it's a two-hour run um so every week the the school due to establishment The Institute would send the bus down to buy Provisions at dehradun which is the nearest town so my father would come across every weekend to stay the weekend and I remember sitting there um and this bus drives up curtains pulled the driver wearing civilian clothes you know but you can see the mark of a soldier on him and my father steps out and behind him there's a South Indian guy carrying his suitcase


there's a South Indian guy carrying his suitcase and this happened a couple of weekends and I asked him I said who's the Southern and he touched my father's feet and I said what is this you know some canteen contractor you know just grateful and then you retired you settled down and you know I got into the army at some stage and then the India today came out with some articles about the LTT and the problem in Sri Lanka and they're being trained in Chakrata and there was a picture of prabhakaran standing there cronies you know the background of the hill and my brothers also there my brother looked at it and said yeah I've seen this guy he's pointing at prabhakaran are you sure because they're writing about this guy now he's in certain came there to the house I don't know but I certainly saw a whole bunch of these and you know and 80 88 87 you didn't see too many South Indians in dehraduna up


see too many South Indians in dehraduna up north then you could see distinctly that they were different so now look at this the father trains them without realizing that the sun will be facing his former students at some stage and when I came back from Sri Lanka I remember he was a very seasoned Soldier I came back from Sri Lanka and I remember the first evening he didn't ask me anything in the evening we sat down over a drink um and then he looked at me and he said so what do you think of the boys it's a bit boys it's my boys I said well they were good we lost a lot of men and horses and I think I saw a little smile and a twinkle in the old Colonel's eyes he looked up and then he raised a salute to the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka he serves you bastards right bullying with the boys aren't you he was very impressed with them he says you know some of them some of them


he says you know some of them some of them didn't even know how to tie a shoelace and when we booked out an eight hour program training program they said no this the senior leader came up and said no make a 13 make it 14. that's the kind of motivation they had and then you unleash them train them arm them and unleash them on their own terrain they were deadly now I understand what you meant by motivated so so that's one partner the other part is that you know after they went back um and they took on the Sri Lankan Army and then at some stage and Rajiv Gandhi signed this Accord it was supposed to be between three people prabhakran I and Mr Gandhi prabhakran was hold up in Ashoka hotel I think in sort of a house arrest guest he was not consulted they went and signed up and he was told say to complete here as the God he said I have not even consulted and I'm talking about an elim in


even consulted and I'm talking about an elim in independent state I'm not interested in all this novices I said um you don't care we're sending the Indian peacekeeping Force to ensure because president said look we can't enforce disarming we don't have the Manpower so we got embroiled a whole bunch of us turned up there thinking it's going to be a peacekeeping mission the Sri Lankan Army was sent back into their Barracks we took over their posts which year was this it was 87. I joined later of course um but the unit had been committed for some time all three Commando units were there and uh till then the Sri Lankan the LTT used to come sit in the mess and stuff like that chat around they had been trained some of the instructors had trained them from DSF what do you mean they came and sat in the mess because we weren't taking them on you see for some time the Indian army maratha battalion in a SF unit sitting at balali Airfield um we're


SF unit sitting at balali Airfield um we're just sitting and watching what is happening between the while the Accord was being signed what what sparked it off was that they captured 17 of these senior leaders LTT leaders the Coast Guard and at that stage the court had been signed so then I said hand them over to us the Sri Lankan Army the LTT said don't do it they'll be tortured they'll be killed but because Accord had been signed uh it was decided to hand them over to the Sri Lankan Army um at that stage they asked that a last meal be given to the boys and they passed cyanide capsules inside and all 17 of them committed suicide shoot on their cyanide capsules to prevent themselves from oh yes from getting taken over by the London I mean that was the spark after that the next I think it was the 10th Para without taking any names here it was one of their Russian trucks which was going to jaffna got the boys out burned


was going to jaffna got the boys out burned them put tires around their neck and then it was free for all then they attacked Indian Special Forces and the Infantry unit there and then the force started building in because by then it was all right if you're not going to listen to us and disarm and in your intent is clear you're hostile don't be going in so then they started building in troop movement and then they realized they needed more troops and more troops and once we've taken over the the urban centers the LTD promptly disappeared into the jungle then it became jungle fighting so most of my experience in Sri Lanka is just sitting in bloody ambush giving in in a jungle in a jungle it was it was terrible 72 hours 96 hours no bloody water you're just sitting there some track coming in going out in a very thick jungle and he would go in at night sit there and just sit there so you guys would just wait for 72 hours


there so you guys would just wait for 72 hours continuously in the jungle and observe if there's any kind of movement or any kind of disturbance well it was an ambush it was an ambush operation for someone who doesn't understand that word how do you well you conceal yourself on some intelligence or at random because you feel there's movement hostile movement on a track on a track track you mean like a road in the jungle well yes and then you hope that the guy comes along so you can hit him and there's the danger of wild animals oh yeah certainly I ran to a few really well I remember there was a jart battalion uh and and an elephant picked up the last guy and carried him in the bloody jungle he's a little chicken but he survived I laid an ambush I remember and um I think it was a 72-hour Ambush and uh the lmg guy suddenly not me I was like next to him you're covering a track and that's me and


him you're covering a track and that's me and then did this and in that Starlight you know through the foliage I couldn't make out what he's showing and then I saw some movement you know I'd see that I could see the foresight of the lmg and I'd see something right and fall and Rise and Fall and then it was available the guy was very drunk on some fruit or something he just walked up sat himself leaned against the lmg battle went off to sleep and I have you 20. hard SF men you know shooting bricks if this guy wakes up and he's a tusker he wakes up and he charges that's the end of your Ambush and that's the end what do you do with a tuska sitting there um and then he got up shook himself disappeared and I felt very happy I said if if this guy doesn't know be sitting here that means you know because it takes time for the jungle smell to start coming what is that so so


smell to start coming what is that so so you know you go people often land up in ambushes you can't go wearing an aftershave hair oil talcum powder and also so that kind so it takes a takes some time before January 24 to 36 hours before you start smelling like The Jungle which is essential because you know people people who you are after the opposition the opposition is only living wild their sense of smell is very keen the guy who's who's coming down that track he can smell anything so you've got to be very careful that you are not using any artificial smell which is why you said that Sri Lanka was the most challenging because even those guys were asked oh they were very aggressive they were their training films were some of these uh these Hollywood movies really a little aggressive I mean some of their operational sure Madness what kind of weapons did they use they had Acres they had better weapons in the Indian army how well most of them were supplied


Indian army how well most of them were supplied by us then they got into their own procurement how well they had money the entire the entire Sri Lankan diaspora across the world was was giving them money the funding was being collected so I came back on leave this is a strange thing is that is that the narrative or could it have been geopolitical Powers at play funding it no no this this funding was happening their own people were funding them people settle in Sweden Norway England forget that I came on leave and I remember at the uh Madras then Madras now Chennai Chennai railway station I had a bunch of these college guys asking me for donations so I said for what is for the LTT in my first desire was to punch him in the face and I said I survived Sri Lanka I get lynched by the locals in my own country um so they were collecting they had enough money they had their own ships which were uh which were


they had their own ships which were uh which were getting all the arms equipment was there a weapon that the LTT had or that you had ever faced in a combat situation which you were kind of wary of in terms of either a dangerous weapon to take on or just no no the IDS were terrible what what the improvised explosive devices the IEDs they were deadly bulk of our casualties but because of their very Innovative and imaginative way of using their explosives could you give an example or I can give an example there used to be a Road opening party which used to go for example uh and uh after clearing the road they would sit under one tree and have a cup of tea so the late IDs in a series like this I think they got about 12 or 15 people in that I lost a friend because they posted they had posters stuck on the walls LTT posters they knew short enough the Indian army is going to come start taking them off one of them had a little


start taking them off one of them had a little exclusive behind it blown up why is it to be a Johnny minded remember to take your leg off it was a plastic thing you couldn't even detect it made by made in a soap soap box wow why is it called improvised explosive devices because you improvise it just through scrap material you put it together what causes the explosion like some mixture of chemicals chemicals potassium whatever it's simple and then you stuff it up with uh with nails balls whatever you have takes your leg off that's good enough have you been injured in combat no I haven't been luckily have you come close to getting injured yeah nobody wants to get shot nobody goes into combat thinking he's going to get shot but you know I've had people getting shot close to me yes and as an SF teammate if I can call you that is your protocol to go and be the medic in that situation as well if if there is no medic yes and


as well if if there is no medic yes and certainly what I understand is in the SF uniform you'll have a bunch of like pockets and different Pockets have like different uh tools of which one pocket is just your you carry your uh field dressing okay so that also includes a morphine injection but not in my time I don't know if they still have a morphine injection but the morphine injection would ideally be carried by the nursing assistant okay but what SF units uh they they lay a lot of emphasis on medical training so a troop going out would ideally have a trained medic and then the rest of the guys would have rudimentary idea of how a gunshot wound has to be addressed have you addressed a gunshot wound I have addressed The Gunshot yes what's your mindset seeing a brother like in pain plus having to go about your mind yeah you know it it um I was I ran into an ambush in JK at about seven thousand feet up in a


JK at about seven thousand feet up in a forest and uh into the nasty situation because um there were two civilians killed uh one civilian seriously wounded they were they were cutting wood five in the morning and it was not a disturbed area it still is not a disturbed idea it never was entire peer punjaba in this area and uh I had my lead Scout it was a paratrooper young boy he had a bullet through his it hit his uh AK which had a butt because she didn't went through his forearm here and another round went through his stomach and then we had to carry him down from 8 000 feet to the road head on your back after it had rained and he was in pain he was sleeping off and you're trying to keep him big and and we had nothing actually uh we had nothing we used to carry sanity napkins for gunshot wound issues this is you know I'm talking the old old Soldier thing this is the time when they were raising RR


thing this is the time when they were raising RR units the shortage of equipment uh and they were pulling in resources cannibalizing the other NFL units we didn't have any medical thing somebody had a painkiller I think we gave it to him we got him done we got a chopper we got him out when he died 20 days later in the hospital negligence I'm certain about it because I met him in the hospital he was fine then suddenly I get a message to say he's dead negligence from medical staff I'm sure his stitches opened up he black to death what goes on in your how do you keep your control as a soldier when you're seeing like a teammate be that hit is there a certain amount of emotional uh training that kicks in certainly it certainly depends on see every situation memory is going to be different you get a chap who's hit there's still of life contact on can you reach him can you in my case bad luck I mean these guys came up


my case bad luck I mean these guys came up from the other side of the Hill spotted us opened up um and then they then they just disappeared so I had all the time to address my casualty but you know every combat situation is different as I said sometimes you may not get the chance to address it but it certainly takes a lot of your attention away from the fight to addressing this guy who's been wounded that is why you know they've started playing around with the caliber of the weapon they used to use a 7.62 which is powerful what does that mean it means you'd rather wound a chap in a conventional War you rather wound a chap because if you wound him and you have a chap in the battlefield screaming shouting if a he's demoralizing the rest of the people B you need another four guys to pull him take him back right till the base the issue of ten making sure that the guy has to be pulled back carried medically treated


has to be pulled back carried medically treated etc etc so then you have a 5.56 you know which would probably injure you which is a smaller caliber a shorter bullet shorter bullet lesser powder in it so to say so it's it's it's worse to have a situation where you have a couple of people old and screaming and shouting or whatever's happening dead is dead party's over so um the one thing I've realized and it's really sad but the one thing I realized about Urban centers is that Urban Youth don't have too much of a perspective on the Indian Special Forces but they have perspective on Navy Seals on American Marines Etc and when you start telling them about Indian Special Forces they're Blown Away uh but to explain it to them I have to talk to them in their language I have a lot of Bros for whom when I was trying to explain what paragraph is for the first time I said that you know you've played those video games where


said that you know you've played those video games where you have to single-handedly go and take out an entire Camp of enemies Special Forces does that but in real life is that a fair explanation no no it is I mean this is the power of Hollywood this is the power of the American culture this is what the the Arab world fears about the American culture first comes your television with all the Hollywood movies then comes McDonald you know and that is how they start changing your your culture and so the fact is that my own son is impressed with all these seal steam movies and big Brony guys I don't think so he has any idea about what the Indian Special Forces is about it's all about the American smart uniforms big guys flying all over the place that's a different it's a different ball game yeah I mean after all these special versus conversations I can't imagine growing up with a special versus veteran in my house he's a cool guy he's a cool guy you


a cool guy he's a cool guy you know whenever I pitch into him he says and it's a great saying he's his uh father don't forget uh youth today is wasted on the young really nice thing when I tell him you don't do this you're a bloody generation not doing anything it's constantly mobile push your limited success youth today is wasted on the young I accept it thank you very much he's not taking the challenge he very comfortably accepts the fact that we are a soft bunch of people so thank you very much I see you fine all right I hear you and I also agree that we are all softies to a very large degree and probably this podcast is a means to still experience aversion like a very visual version of what you have experienced through conversations and that's what it's been for me as a uh as an artist I get to live some perspective from other people says and I'm not even saying I've lived like one percent of the kind of intensity you've


like one percent of the kind of intensity you've lived but at least I get a trailer and I'm hoping that that's what the listeners get as well in saying that let's make the podcast a little lighter as well because there are lighter aspects to serving in the Special Forces so as far as I understand special forces are trained in uh land air and water in terms of uh jumps from aircrafts um you know long distance uh I don't want to call it trekking what is the official word you would use reconnaissance or penetration penetration in land and then um diving as well um had you done a lot of Dives as well throughout your tenure so you had a primary skill and a secondary skill each of us okay so my primary skill is uh combat diver really okay and everybody had to be a paratrooper so you had to do that by paratrooper you mean jumps normal jump static line jumps as they say Okay round canopy jumps everybody has to do that then


round canopy jumps everybody has to do that then there's a specialization which is which is called now skydiving outside we call it combat Free Fall okay so that could be one skill mountaineering could be another scale you know then you had sniper skills demolition etc etc but your primary skill one of the primary skills that I had was combat diving because it came to you naturally as compared to other people well you know I volunteered for free fall they had No Vacancy then okay so there's a vacancy for combat diving and it's a weight of course the Navy runs it for us it's a very tough course and they play merry Hill with you so I said all right so I meant for that so I became a diver when we say combat diving it's operations like detonating underwater explosives or placing an explosive on would be um for any operations happening on the coastline the Marine Commandos would probably go in for any waterborne operation inland the Indian Special Forces


for any waterborne operation inland the Indian Special Forces these Special Force units would be deployed but by and large what they train you do is to use it as a mode of infiltration if you have to move from point A to point B a couple of ways that you can do it here you can walk it B you can jump at twenty four thousand twenty five thousand twenty thousand eighteen thousand you know depending on wind conditions etcetera at night good weight and then Glide in so this is called combat free fall or if there's a water body then you get inside and you start swimming it's housework um you have a compass direction and you swim so the whole objective is that uh you are using it as a mode of infiltration to move from point A to point B quietly sun has to be quietly that's why it's a close circuit set have you dived yes so so you blow out those bubbles that's an open set military diving is different it's a pure oxygen set and


diving is different it's a pure oxygen set and it's a closed circuit set there are no bubbles going up and you can't go below seven meters because pure oxygen gets poisonous so you just dip under the surface get your composite Direction and start swimming I want to talk a lot more about a military career but just for now I'm going to ask you something about your career post the military you're working at a bank no no I'm not working anymore I'm a gentleman at large okay I wish I could say that I have Estates to live off but I don't but I have retired after having done these things in life in terms of being in those kind of combat situations being a medic in certain situations pulling bodies out of reverse you're sitting in a bank and I'm sure you know you're applying your special forces skill set there also and growing you think do you go back to all these memories yeah of course from time to time they fade you grow old


course from time to time they fade you grow old but uh Soul killing job nothing sitting in a you packed in more excitement in a day then you perhaps back in in 20 years of work outside there's no excitement there was nothing it's just a job what do you make of Civilian reality you know when when you're sitting with all your co-workers at the bank and someone's crying about the kid at school or whatever and you're just like oh that's what you're crying about cool no no so you know nothing the problem was the problem was that in of all the teachings and learnings that you got from these Special Forces one of them was that you don't panic very easily now after the situation that you've seen you don't panic and I had to pinch myself on occasions when there is some serious stuff has happened by civilian standards and everybody is gathered here and everybody's flapping like headless chicken and you're thinking yeah where's the problem and I remember the HR


thinking yeah where's the problem and I remember the HR head to Once done to me and you know looked at me and I could see that this guy is he said you're not taking it seriously I think away and I thought for a second I said how do I explain to him he's sitting in an AC room they're not bullets flying nobody's dead here I said I'll sort it out no no you're not taking it seriously I said do I have to what do you want me to do because I don't see there's a problem so sometimes I realize it used to become a bit of a problem because and and this goes in your personal life also that uh what people perceive as a huge issue is no issue for you and then you come across as being insensitive callous not concerned anyway no way you can explain but maybe a spectrum of sensitivity is so wide that no it's all you see you if you're going to compare anything which is unfair and I keep telling


compare anything which is unfair and I keep telling myself well look forget that it's gone that life is over it was a life different time different context um if you don't keep getting that at the back of your head because you'll never have a situation outside in CV Street like that where somebody's dying screaming somebody's been shot somebody's not gonna happen and if that is your yardstick to say that is a crisis and nothing else matters then you're going to have a problem in CV Street you'll have problems in your in your relationship are you comfortable talking about that yeah I'm comfortable about everything but all I'm saying is yes I've had problems I often have problems even now with my wife you know you're not serious but you've probably seen this movie called American Sniper I've seen it yes um they kind of depicted exactly what you're saying in terms of as a soldier you have a certain mindset but when you go back into the real world um sometimes it's difficult to


into the real world um sometimes it's difficult to completely empathize with the real world because you realize how narrow uh it is you know I'm being disagree she's the point is to each their own your perception is built by what you see what your experiences are the environment that you live in I saw other things I volunteered for it and nobody forced me it's unfair for me to say that you know you're not a real man because you haven't seen things that your perception is narrow or that you're you're concerns are never that's your concern that's the way you look at it that's the way you grew up that's what you've seen Fair Deal so so I I'm just saying this is the problem I faced sure otherwise otherwise nothing compared after leaving the SF and joining you know the various banks that I worked in it's been a piece of cake it's been a piece of cake yeah nothing ever compared to what I went through in the SF we've had a great


I went through in the SF we've had a great time I've retired I'm out I'm climbing Hills diving swimming doing piece of cake in your relationship was it like a similar problem where you were reacting differently to your partner and then that was becoming the Crux of the misunderstanding it can yes it still does and how do you go past that as a guy it still does I'm often lectured that you have no sensitivity so it's the age-old sorry baby you're all right it is everybody's facing the same shape you see the point is you don't have to serve in the SF to face that but I I think I would agree when I'm told often that there is a lack of sensitivity and what can I say what can I explain to them how do I explain that you know your seriousness your situation which which seems to you like a crisis is no crisis yeah yeah um telling you something which has offended a military veteran in the past and I'm still


military veteran in the past and I'm still gonna tell you this but um maybe I've had like 10 to 15 military veterans uh on the show and I can think of like two or three who weren't carrying aspects of pain in their eyes at this stage of Life as a veteran I'd also probably put you in the same bracket but you're one of the older guys I've spoken to maybe time has healed you that's what I sense as well was there an angle of some I don't want to call it PTSD because I suffered PTSD you should call it okay I had problems for people who don't know what PTSD is uh post-traumatic stress yes I had problems for many years what happened you would you would withdraw unto yourself in a gathering you would you would get anger seeing people enjoying themselves there was well there was a lot of anger in my case there was a lot of anger but why anger or someone enjoying themselves why is the bastard


or someone enjoying themselves why is the bastard enjoying himself doesn't he know that people dying up there does he even have the faintest clue that somebody's you know in my problem was you know this to be occasionally nice to come back there was an occasion when I remember I came back there was a contract in the valley I was going on leave the next day I was just flying they had an operation in the evening uh the firefight there was novel next day you took a flight from Chicago came down and then I saw some party and I went for this party and the the sudden change just 13 hours back you were sitting in a bush and there was fighting happening and now there is people enjoying themselves it takes time you know there is problem is it just time that heals it takes time did you ever there was no Counseling in my time there was nobody even talked about PTSD yeah if you said I'm cracking under the strain then you were


said I'm cracking under the strain then you were yellow that was the old Indian army I don't know even now you say as too much too much I've had enough your repetition is going to get tarnished yeah you know sometimes for some people therapy may not even be the answer but at least in my experience of talking to a lot of men from different walks of life um there are some things you can only tell your partner or your girlfriend and then there's something you can only tell your brothers so you need Bros to kind of look out for each other if therapy is not possible and for some people it's not because of financial constraints or whatever and I don't know how many uh counselors they would be who could understand PTSD maybe you need a military counselor yeah you can't talk this with your girlfriend she not don't understand or your wife would you ever try no I didn't try no I didn't try but I ran into problems in my marriage between outcome of the PTSD


problems in my marriage between outcome of the PTSD I'm sure did you ever feel like crying at any boy no I don't think so no crying okay but adjustment you know um basically anger issues not that you'd go and do anything huh but you just get this strong feeling that I want to punch this guy in the face this guy sitting there I feel like my I wish she takes a fight with me something you've taken a dislike maybe you're just enjoying himself so much anything could just trigger something in your mind you know and you uh a lot of withdrawal so people have different symptoms some don't some don't carry any scars at all those are the Champs I can go through without anything but I took time I took about three four years four years five years yeah one of the guys from whom I sense a lot of healed energy and your and I'm coming from the perspective of doing podcasts with everyone lots of military folks but generally there's a lot of people


folks but generally there's a lot of people who carry drama with them I feel you've grown out of completely the trauma I can actually sense it from you um if I may be rude enough I do feel there's like maybe 10 percent left to go like in you but that's just my reading and I keep it alive when I look back on my military days it seems a different world a different it's been so many years now it's a different life a different world I look at some pictures and I see you know um and when I wrote my three books I made the effort to go back including Sri Lanka I went back to some of those places um and it was catharsis of sort you know and then I wrote so I think that process of going to those same places putting it uh in a book I think a lot of it is just out of the system yeah journaling I look at that book now and I did this really um does it you have a life lesson in


really um does it you have a life lesson in your what you just said writing it out yeah that's the best thing they say the only thing that helped me deal with the worst breakup of my life was poetry there you are yeah because I was looking for a new form of content to create someone said that where are all the poets gone and I said oh that's what we want I can do poetry and then I started writing my pain out and it felt nicer it felt like taking an emotional [ __ ] but the point is they did continue after that the Poetry why they stopped it stopped once the pain was gone there you are best ways to deal with pain I have to look down upon poetry thinking that why does anyone even do this until it started coming out of me and I realized oh there's writing in terms of writing stories writing articles where you have to kind of write in a construct and then this poetry which is free flow writer absolutely and free flow comes from your heart just


writer absolutely and free flow comes from your heart just write whatever you're feeling it doesn't you have to rhyme right four or five sentences about what if no no try your hand at uh at painting or sketching I did that too what did you sketch I always sketched human figures and stuff I I painted watercolors I have a few pictures up on my wall a couple of my mates have them on the wall did do any of those pictures have pain no none okay okay well mostly mostly by doing you know it was a great way to to de-stress to take things I'm just suggesting to you oh okay I I have a terrible handwriting and I can't I can't draw to save my life like I can draw some crazy [ __ ] but it won't look good who cares coming back to the themes of the show so the with special forces podcast I often struggle to come up with new questions because we've had so many uh that I don't know what else to ask but you've


I don't know what else to ask but you've given me three or four new tangents to think about now I have to go back to some of my old questions which are points of interest for me uh animals we spoke about the wild boar you saw in Sri Lanka but you've also served in Northeast and Kashmir did you have animal encounters uh not not in the Northeast okay um we were hitting a Naga camp in Burma you know people talk about this trans border operation and stuff like that which happened in the Northeast uh the Indian army has been crossing over especially the sap units I've been crossing over for some years um and the Burmese government and the Indian government of course know about it it was with permission from the Burmese government that we would cross over so this is one of those operations we'd crossed over to a very large Naga camp and this must have been about five or six kilometers inside Obama and at at night we started hearing this it's uh


at at night we started hearing this it's uh it's a monkey called the Gibbon the one given okay and it has a laugh you know like a like a it's like a human laugh and we suddenly heard this loud coming in this very thick forest in the Northeast and nobody knew see is this is it the the militants coming back is there some sort of a signaling happening much later we came back we realized it's an animal of sorts much later when I checked up I realized it's called a gibbon I think it's called a gibbon and it's a as a protected species uh in in in jnk of course I cited uh I cited leopards in fact I had a very nice conversation with a militant chapter Khan over this over this incident that happened in North Kashmir these guys also have a sense of humor because I used to talk to a lot of them on the radio set just trying to get into their head to figure out you know are they


into their head to figure out you know are they Romantics adventurers like you know some of the SF guys are if a classified podcast you know I I had a I had a two three years and chatted quite a few of them I had to ensure that I chat only the [ __ ] militants the foreign militants um and uh you know bulk of them were there for economic reasons but a lot of them the leaders of course had gone to some madrasa or the other so you know there are other experiences coming to this one is thick snow and at about two o'clock we were intense two o'clock there's firing the burst of Fire oh [ __ ] somebody's attacked the poor some nonsense between three feet of snow miserably cold so I got out walked up to the century post and um it was a dug in place with sandbags around it the light machine gun post there were two guys there looking very shaken up foreign so I you know shown my torch hard snow


foreign so I you know shown my torch hard snow so there were bug marks and I noticed there were two of them so they're hunting in pair so I said what happened he says you know so we saw this ice sparking in the darkness and before we could react this guy leapt and he must have miscalculated because he landed on top of the sandbag and knocked the lmg barrel off the the number two guy behind him opened up the AK that's when both of them ran off next morning you know the sun came out bad weather the sun came out and the radio's crackled to life and Military stations coming alive and this militant station I recognized his voice he recognized my voice came on came on set and said he's berating some kashmiri militant and he's telling that chap kashmiri Commander he's telling him he says what's happened he's gone last two days we haven't had food to eat if this is the way you conduct Jihad yeah your bloody guest


the way you conduct Jihad yeah your bloody guest we've come here to fight three days two days he hasn't come back with any bloody food and add it to that there's another problem there is a bloody leopard who's coming attacked and now Javed is mold no they're sitting in a in a in a hideout somewhere in the forest there miserable conditions and our job is modeled now tell that bastard to come up as soon as possible and get a bloody Hakeem also while you're doing that and your job Java died pitching into this very kashmiri guy who's constantly saying sorry sorry you know my fault and stuff like that so I you know I I heard this so I said Khan foreign Khan you've been you've been attacked by a leopard he says oh forget that and I said no no no listen to me that leopard because you [ __ ] [ __ ] don't come down and fight you bastard are sitting up there or hanging around in the Villages


up there or hanging around in the Villages eating free food we've trained these leopards they're trained by us now these leopards are going to come hunting for you aren't leopards like extremely shy and try avoiding humans they don't they'll attack kids you know dogs they're very shy but if you desperate you're desperate you know I know food there's thick snow yeah this is minus 10 minus 15 degrees no food um but I recall that incident with share Khan that conversation I'm inclined to know more about these classified podcasts you've done with militants like no I had nice conversations with them you know I realized that yeah they were my my my impression of them was that they were they were a narrow-minded uh Limited people there as as T.E Lawrence said in his book and there intellect leave fallow in incurious resignation uh the imagination was not vivid their thought process was very mathematical those who had studied in a madrasa had been taught history related to Muslim