true I I won't even claim that and it's not true right I actually kind of see the universe uh I I see them while you're writing while I'm writing and in many ways that parallel universe is more real than our existing uh world because right now I can see you right we can shake hands but I don't know what you're thinking uh I I I can't feel your emotions right but in that parallel universe uh I can it's like I'm a fly on the wall but I can feel their emotions I can hear what they think I can see them and in my book in my books essentially I describe what I see um you've done this podcast with Vishal Gunda also way back and that's where the first time I got to know of you outside of your books and that was my first instinct towards having you on this show as well um you spoke about the intuitive net that all knowledge exists around us and we're pulling out pieces of creativity and knowledge from around us and it


pieces of creativity and knowledge from around us and it made so much sense to me and that was the first time I'd ever heard that and I've had always felt that way but I never heard someone else articulated that way uh what did could you articulated once again I've made you do this on this show no problem at all I look you know the left brain right brain Theory right and a modern education system uh is completely geared towards the Left Right rational brain I'm not writing it it's important right but our ancient gurukul system the partialas didn't just focus on that they focused on the right brain as well because that's that's a seat of creativity that's a seat of instinctive learning that's a seat of the goddess and there there is no kind of step-by-step logical process it's a part of the Goddess right uh you kind of just it's a bit like you know you train that muscle and the blessing just comes right and things which you do which are creative right so


and things which you do which are creative right so painting playing an instrument anything right and then I have to be something which you know you'll put out in the world or people will pay money for it can be only for you right but you must do those things because it trains your instinctive mind right um do you think prayer is one of those exercises prayers is one of those things meditation pranayama our ancestors believed all that trains the instinctive mind to catch things from the end and the thing is that the intuitive mind is what can pull out Miracles right look at some leaps in learning when you're doing logical learning it's like you can't do from the first standard to graduation within one year logically right there may be a few Geniuses but most people will have to go through that grind but when you're doing instinctive learning it's just it you know like for 30 years there'd be nothing and then suddenly in one year you've learned enough for 60 years right because


year you've learned enough for 60 years right because it's it's a part of the Goddess it's just the way it is right and for me my books kind of appear that we think about it I had written no fiction before immortalism you know that absolutely nothing till today after you know 10 books when my school and college friends meet me they still say actually because they refuse to believe that I've written it right and I've shown boss no characteristics of being creative when I was young I was as left-brained as they come BSE mathematics I was hyper competitive I was active in sports boxing gymnastics uh uh the only kind of creative thing I did was I was the lead singer of a band in I'm Calcutta but I never wrote music right so it was never the right brain and then suddenly model of malware comes doesn't have 10 long books you know in 12 years uh if someone had told me this 20 years ago I wouldn't have believed it that I would do this


wouldn't have believed it that I would do this why do you think Shiva chose you I don't know man I think uh he tends to pick those who need him the most I guess I I certainly feel I'm not worthy enough for it I certainly feel that there are uh there are many writers far better than I am with far better Talent why I got picked I don't know why I received this blessing I don't know you think about lucky yes especially because you know because I there's this thing in my mind all the time that I need to honor this blessing right uh because it is a blessing I don't know where it comes from right uh and if it's a blessing it can stop anytime right uh so I need to get as many of my books out before the blessing stops and why do you think it'll stop because I can't explain where it comes from and you know and there's this there was this phase in my life where I've people keep asking


this phase in my life where I've people keep asking writers block writers block I've never faced writer's block okay I'm except once you know these 10 books like I said relatively long books relatively intense books right uh except once where I actually thought my the blessings gone for like two three months and that was in my personal life perhaps among the lowest phases of my life I was really troubled uh uh at that time and I don't really speak about it much I'm and the worst thing is to make a fetish I don't know I'm depressed you know someone come and help me know I mean that's you need to handle it yourself and within your within your family uh and there was you know for me uh you know uh like I was saying there are when you are in these really really like it cannot get any worse kind of situation it's essentially the people you love and the things to do that you love which is what keeps you going right I'd lost some of the people


you going right I'd lost some of the people that I that I love but I had my still had some of them around and we are sticking together but suddenly the like I was writing ravan at that time I was in the middle of it you stop coming I mean there was I would open the laptop and there was nothing I couldn't see anything and I thought it's gone right uh and that to me was even more of a blow that I'm going to lose this also now this was one of the things that kind of kept me going uh and there's this thing that's there in you know in in the dharmic way the value of emotions right that don't um don't deride emotions there's a value to it right there is something which which brings out uh deeper things and you know I'll tell you the story of what happened of how I came out of it and you understand the value of emotions my uh twin brother and obviously he wasn't as devastated uh State


and obviously he wasn't as devastated uh State as I was and you know how men are when when we are completely you know out of our mind you know we like to do brainless things we were just watching TV and randomly surfing I mean you don't even know what you've seen after two hours but you're just I don't want to think anything I just wanna and uh you know a channel came up there was uh this song and I know why I told Ashish that shops up I want to hear that uh it was a song I'd heard before for some reason like the initial bars just had an impact on me and I downloaded it on my uh on my phone on the the the music app that I have uh and that evening I went out for a walk and I don't know why I didn't start a playlist I was in the park next to us stay in low Barrel in the closer voltas complex so I went out for a walk in the park and uh I didn't


for a walk in the park and uh I didn't share playlist I just said play songs and how this app does the Amazon app is it starts from the latest song If you don't select a playlist so it started with that song and those first few bars I listened to it and I just started crying right and for one hour I was walking round and round in the park people say I was crying continuously right uh as just like the first 10 seconds listen again and again started seeing things and I and like the next three four chapters came out and I think perhaps I did I came up started writing and I perhaps among the best writing I've done right uh it's when you know when ravan well when he discovers that the love of his life uh you know has been brutally killed uh and uh to me I was you know how we are taught in our culture when you don't cry control yourself uh uh I understood the value of emotions at that time that let it flow yeah uh and especially


that time that let it flow yeah uh and especially in the worst phases of your life perhaps if you let it flow it'll pull you out you know the worst phases of your life it's only the miracle of the Goddess uh pull you out of it like a mother I think one of the I don't know if you want to call it a tragedy or one of just the strange aspects of human life is that pain creates creativity silence also creates creativity but pain creates Some solid creativity I have a discussion on that in War of Lanka where ravan and goddess Sita are talking and he says that actually grief is the root of greatness [Music] and you know and his logic is this that look uh happiness can never be about the external world right uh happiness is essentially internal you just make a choice I want to be happy where in some ways you are almost detached from the world right uh and of course it's ravan so he has his own approach to it because


so he has his own approach to it because he says that happy people are in a way like they're like drugged out they just convince themselves that they are happy and they are happy it doesn't matter what happens in the world right whereas grief-stricken people are those who are unhappy with where life is and that's what gives them the energy to want to change it and that's what makes him great right and they think that if they change things around them they will find happiness but happiness can never come from the outside and it can only be from the inside out so they change things and they realize I'm still not happy so they keep trying to change things and I'm still not happy and that's what makes him great and he says that often you know in our way we have you must have heard of that wonderful rhyme from Raj tarangini that of kalana that uh when fate is about to bless you with the greatest of glories is also when retreating Misfortune curses you


glories is also when retreating Misfortune curses you with even more uh grief right and out there it was said that it's the way the universe balances itself if you're going to be great you have to be willing to suffer as well it's the way the universe balances itself and ravan's point is perhaps we've confused causality that we assume that great people have to suffer grief and actually it's the other way around that because you're grief stricken you become great because you are unhappy with life that's what gives you a fire to keep working right and that's what makes you great and you think that change will make you happy but the world can never make you happy only you can make yourself happy but the moment you become happy you stop feeling like changing the world then you can't be great anymore so the entire point is you got to pick one of the two either be great or be happy all why do characters like yamraj exist in our history or in our culture


yamraj exist in our history or in our culture is it a way of depicting what death is and the nature of death or do you think these were real beings a bit of what I genuinely believe that they were real beings but if you think about it do you notice something interesting yamraj is also called dharmaraj the death and Dharma you know are are in the same [Music] on this show said that life is preparation for the exam that is death for a good death yes uh uh and that is the purpose of life to have a good death um and it was believed that one of the interpretations is that in some ways yamraj was the first mortal because then he went into pit through look and then therefore takes us there right um and you explore death in a way and you know Socrates had it right it's one of it's one of the greatest blessings for Humanity because uh imagine if you are living forever with with no death at all but you didn't have


with with no death at all but you didn't have the spiritual wisdom of God imagine what would be like 500 years later how bored we would be with life and what would we be doing right with life or if we live for a thousand years and what is thousand years in the great scheme of of time itself and is death away you know time for the soul to sleep and re-evaluate and recharge just like sleep is a time for the body to and the Brain to rejuvenate and recharge uh uh and is that why yamraj is also dharmaraj right that because essentially the soul will find mocks when it's in balance on Dharma right so death kind of gives you that opportunity uh to uh for your soul to evaluate and to step back and to think about okay what do I need to do in the next life right so that I can find I can find mocks and uh yamraj by allowing us to do that is keeping us close to Dharma which is why he is


keeping us close to Dharma which is why he is the dharmraj as well what what makes you feel like it was an actual being and if it was an actual being the next question is going to be about aliens or being some other places so it's like this look um do I believe that aliens could exist in the universe hey yes you know uh uh is any evidence as yet of it no but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence right uh uh I think it was Carl Sagan would said that uh if we are the only life forms in this entire universe it's an awful waste of space right because I mean Earth is not even a rounding off error it's like why create such a massive universe so just so much life so there are there are two aspects to this one is there a form of life uh uh that exists on different planets on different galaxies on different solar systems that we haven't come in contact with and could be in the future uh come in


with and could be in the future uh come in contact with it could Elon Musk succeed and make us an interplanetary species and therefore we could interact that's one uh uh one approach to it another approach could be that are we in contact with life forms already is just that we don't recognize it uh is the earth a living being is the sun a living being what is life how do we Define life right and our ancestors believed that there is uh Consciousness in everything right and Consciousness means life right that is what our ancestors believe our definition of life is a little different the modern uh biological uh definition so we we would classify uh plants as life but we wouldn't classify Stones as life we won't classify the Earth as life you won't classify the stars as life but our ancestors would classify them also as life so it could be one of both there could be alien life forms I certainly believe there are alien life from black it's impractical to think we are


life from black it's impractical to think we are the only form of life there is I want to raise the second possibility could it be that actually we are in touch with forms of life already we just don't see them as life like which is Mother Earth or the Sun are there forms of life okay but we don't we don't see them as life uh our ancestors certainly believes that they were forms of life as well which is why we see the Divine in everything because our ancestors believe that anything that has Consciousness has life from from our epics are also probably extended to the puranas where would you say that okay this story likely had some alien characters these seem like a real alien characters there is a story I read in one of the puranas there was a king of Kalinga uh who uh The Story Goes that wanted to find a good groom for his daughter so he wanted to meet Lord brahmade so he went to brahmalok and you know there are various levels of


and you know there are various levels of existence right Brahma Brahma local the concept of time is different right so uh so one of the theories is when we say yoga and you must have heard it's like lacks of yours and many you know many colonial era westerners used to laugh at that how can you have lacks of yours right uh that obviously but now of course the universe is in lacks of years but there are various levels of existence so the human concept at human level years is actually 26 000 years the entire cycle and then the entire cycle back but the same Lok level is different at a lot Brahma level is different at a Vishnu a lot of Vishnu level is different Lord Shiva level is different but can be in multiple lacks of years so the story goes this King went to Lord Brahma and Lord Brahma was busy in some other work so he waited uh for some two hours uh or a few hours and then after that he spoke to


a few hours and then after that he spoke to Lord Brahma and Lord Brahma will say that what have you done why did you come here and wait because you may have spent only a few hours out here but in Earth uh you know hundreds of years have passed and everyone you know is already dead so uh and this was written you know in the puranas it's like hundreds of years ago and we know in modern theoretical physics if you travel at the speed of light time slows down so uh I I remember I read this and I thought like is this is this time travel it's very we gotta talk about um a little bit about Kalima or generally Mata energy we used the word divine feminine I think you said sacred feminine yeah uh in your studies of Tantra why is there a relation to divine feminine why is there even a cultural relation foreign because it is believed in the uh in the dharmic way that the most powerful energy source is Shakti is is


the most powerful energy source is Shakti is is the divine feminine why not uh It is believed that it is Lord Shiva and the mother goddess together who give us the uh it was one of the beliefs is that Lord Shiva without the feminine principle does not have that life force so but the feminine principle also needs Lord Shiva as well otherwise it's uh it's a a it doesn't have Direction and control so they need that that's the balance that I was speaking about uh but you'll find in many of our stories that you know that there are asuras who are beyond the tridev beyond the three chords and then the mother goddess has to come like and we're uh shooting this in Vijaya Dash me and uh you know among the stories there are linked to uh to the daseras one is of course that Lord Ram killed ravan on this day but the other is of course that Lord that uh that the goddess killed my shasur you know on


the goddess killed my shasur you know on this day uh because he was an assured who was beyond the tridev and therefore the mother goddess had to come uh to kill him uh so the the belief is that the greatest Force is with the divine feminine uh but you we all know the story that what happened with Kalima once she had killed rakta Beach she lost control she started killing uh even known as and then Lord Shiva had to kind of calm her down you know the story right he lay down she stepped on him and then she immediately kind of realized and then stepped back so it's believed in our way that the greatest kind of power power is with the goddess which is why the Sanskrit word for power is Shakti which is the name of the Goddess uh uh which is why in in the Indian way uh the feminine is respected so much and in our ancient way uh women are in are respected uh a great deal


uh women are in are respected uh a great deal um the initial Foundation there's a separate bhairavi Temple I think they call it if I'm not mistaken and uh this energy that I felt in the um Mata Temple basically in um Isha Foundation it was crazy it was something new you know uh felt like crying felt like healing and then when I step out flowing through you yeah I mean I actually didn't end up crying while I was in the temple because there were too many people around and my toxic masculinity didn't allow me to cry in public but uh this Isha Foundation um volunteers came up to me and said it's believed that when you want spiritual growth you go to the dhyanalinga which is the shivling that they've built in the ishavan dish and when you want material growth you pray in the linga bhairavi uh Temple and I don't know why that idea just stuck with me I don't know why Shakti is linked to material growth but one thing I


is linked to material growth but one thing I know about material growth is only when you've ticked off those boxes will your mind and heart be inclined towards spiritual growth uh and they say that if you want faster material growth you ideally should pray to Mata and I kind of have seen them my own life like I don't know man like I'm just I'm sharing like an experience like since I've been inclined towards Mata prayers and Mata based mantras things are starting to happen much faster in my life you know I think we spoke to ishta there which is like when you close your eyes and you think of God which is the god you see so different Hindus have different waves and they say that it changes based on where you are in life for such a long time lately it's been Mata for me you know and this phase has been in sync with the fastest career growth I've seen also interesting and the faster and further my career is going the Lesser I'm interested in career


career is going the Lesser I'm interested in career growth and the more I'm interested the power just takes you further there is certainly a part of Mata worship which is out there so goddess Lakshmi and prakruti itself you know the the shiv prakruti uh principle the purush rakuti uh Lord Shiva and the goddess principle so prakruti is nature goddess Lakshmi is the goddess of bounty so yes that that is a part of material growth uh but goddess Saraswati gives you knowledge and God is gives you the power and the strength wouldn't you think that maybe these are material blessings yeah in a way no doubt no doubt uh but you know the the thing is that uh it it kind of then goes back to the uh you know the four purushata principle that I told you of that um if you chase one at the cost of the other three that doesn't really lead to balance right so I imagine again I'll use


to balance right so I imagine again I'll use an example which many youngsters could understand right now right that you want to you want to build up your uh your your body you want to do uh weight training but say you're training only your right arm all the time you're doing nothing on your left arm you're doing no legs you're doing no back you might get some real massive muscles out is that a healthy body of course not right you have to you have to have balance across all muscle groups that is the that is the principle of the four purushatas that essentially of need balance across all uh only then is it a successful life uh you know and the greatest uh uh lessons you will draw in times of difficulty you know that uh uh what are the kind of friends you've built who are your loved ones uh uh how much wealth power uh Fame you've built uh what is your spiritual strength what is your uh you know wisdom strength because when you know it's only when you face


strength because when you know it's only when you face resistance when life is giving you one blow after another that you realize yeah I've become strong enough right to handle these things then perhaps you're ready for the next phase right of growth uh so that it comes back to the point I said earlier that there is value to challenges okay and and essentially look it's right if you if you're building up your body uh it is to face it's not just about looking good it's too is to be healthy right so that you can face whatever challenges that you come how do you know your body is healthy enough when you face those challenges your body is strong enough to handle it right so how do you know that you are an entire package in terms of Dharma in terms of Arthur in terms of karma that when those challenges come you're able to handle it right without falling apart there's so many many people when tragedy strikes they fall apart right uh uh and and I think that


fall apart right uh uh and and I think that is one it's it's a test in a way so my suggestion would be even when you're going for Earth anything find the find that balance it's all about balance in the dharmic way just having wealth but destroying your health for it uh destroying your spiritual balance for it destroying your relationships for it is not worth it what's the point of that money right um have you had any experiences with this Mata energy in a temple or just through your learnings what have you figured about it because I'm trying to figure more can I say one thing you know honestly and I've nearly spoken about this uh too much I mean I'm a very very deep devotee of of Lord Shiva um somewhere in the back of my mind I am I'm a little scared of the goddess to be honest right uh uh and uh I've had people I respect a great deal people I look up to as gurus you know female gurus and many of them


gurus you know female gurus and many of them telling me you know that you need to explore the goddess the goddess wants to come to you and I have I have some fear in my mind one of my family members my Barbie is deep into goddess worship and uh uh she's really brilliant at it why is she deep in about a solution I don't know she's always been that way right she's uh you know I mean there are some people who get scared of goddess Kali for example there are many actually finds her very beautiful yeah she's very comfortable she has no sense of fear so I'm wondering if I need some more growth to lose that fear it is like I'm comfortable as long as I feel Lord Shiva is there you know what I mean uh uh and this is uh among the things uh that's there in India on goddess worship there's there's some people who just feel a little afraid I am one of them and it's coming up in


I am one of them and it's coming up in this conversation also he's coming up with this conversation as well there's this there's this friend of mine uh you know who's uh uh who's born a Christian and then got into yoga then deeply into Lord Shiva now deeply into Mata worship and she called me out of the blue after some five six years Amish the you need to explore the goddess the goddess wants to contact you I just need you to tell you this wants to contact you and I it's it's so I I can't explain it but I actually get afraid because somewhere in my mind I feel there is too much power uh and in some ways I feel safe with Lord shivar I don't know if that makes sense uh have you ever thought of The Souls of the sphere I don't know man it's it's and it's strange because even my mother is deep into goddess worship right and I love her my mother is like my you know uh among my greatest


mother is like my you know uh among my greatest Joys is just lying down with my with my head on her lap I feel you know very nice and peaceful my mother's you know from the Qatar and he uh so she is uh she's deep into goddess worship but I don't know why sometime in life I'm sure I will find the uh uh the strength to to get into that right now one still feels a bit of a bit of your you know uh yeah maybe it's tonight Lord Shiva is around kind of linked to Mata is this whole concept of Asura's dhana of demon it's always there in the Mata stories one way or the other and honestly it's there in all the quranic stories etc etc again the question to you is firstly you know the if the puranas are actually based on history and I believe they are you believe they are the listeners believe they are why were asuras and dhanav's only concentrate around the subcontinent and they should have probably been


around the subcontinent and they should have probably been there all over the world and either way even if they were just concentrated in the subcontinent what or who were the dhanas or asuras and all these demonic entities in all our stories you know the uh are in the ancient way actually we had the we had concepts of uh geography that went beyond the Indian subcontinent so there were various uh duipers so actually they existed outside the subcontinent as well uh among the things also that's happened in the modern day is uh we Indians have imbibed many of the western approaches you know the simplistic good evil black white um so we tend to see asuras as quote unquote demons which is a very loaded word right uh uh and which is why you know if you ask around many Indians would actually think that uh you know asuras would have green skin and with horns and you know maybe a trident I mean even in depicted like that yeah or a trident Trident was seen as something


yeah or a trident Trident was seen as something negative in the abrahamic way I mean in the Indian way Lord you know so uh and in the puranas it's not that asuras are described as green-skinned and with horns you know the they were asuras who are very good looking there was one good looking uh they were Devas who were good looking they were they was who weren't good looking they were very good like King Bali uh they were asuras who weren't that good like Devas uh who were very good like Lord Agni there were times in which the Devas did not do such good things like Lord Indra at times right uh in a certain way you know from the Rama and uh uh when actually surpanaka was actually quite beautiful right the way she's described uh that we see her with claws that's what we think means but actually shurupa means a winnowing basket and if you see the you know the Ulta side of the winner basket it's very smooth like this and Naka


winner basket it's very smooth like this and Naka means Nails literally translates as manicured nails okay so she was fashionable right so we've imbibed many of the western things and we are using that lens to judge a very nuanced uh approach uh many have forgotten this is there in the puranas the Devas and asuras were actually cousins right or Step Brothers in a way because two different mothers with the same father right uh uh so it wasn't you know that that God devil you know the Western approach the Middle Eastern approach that we have absorbed it was very nuanced in a way and which comes back to the point that I made earlier about that we didn't have a judgmental God who will decide that because you are a jealous God you worship me so you'll go to heaven you didn't worship me it doesn't matter how good you are you'll go to hell and burn in hell for eternity it wasn't like that and that at least to me sounds a


like that and that at least to me sounds a little childish right our our approach was it's all in your hands all right you will decide what happens with your life and if you are in Asura as prahlad was right uh uh but you do noble Deeds you will receive the blessings if you are a Deva and you do negative Deeds yes you will get faced the consequences of it right do you think it was just like a different sect of people that is the point that they were cousins right and there were times when the Asura was most powerful there were times when the Deva was was most powerful I think with you once on one of our past episodes we discussed that Asura could very well also kind of be linked to ahura which is uh the Persian uh and you know that the opponents of the ahura you know what they were called in not Islamic projects um you know so but they saw it in a much more nuanced way all our ancient cultures


a much more nuanced way all our ancient cultures so things in a nuanced way uh basically maybe this could have been that when we say the word Deva we were referring to the Kings or the evolution okay uh that that was that was uh that was the approach but uh uh and asuras are those who were out of tune with what the thing was Earth I mean that was one of the concepts there are various Concepts maybe truly it was just India versus Central Asia possibly but in ancient times actually Central Asia was was pretty intake in its approach for example uh uh where and there were you know among the oldest Lord Ganesha temples Etc are actually all in the steplines in Central Asia uh you know what the turkic you know Turks aren't originally from Turkey you know that right they are originally from Central Asia so what is the turkic word for Idol do you know Idol as a Murthy but where does the word boat come from I'm assuming Sanskrit


does the word boat come from I'm assuming Sanskrit Buddha okay because the Turks were actually Buddhists they converted to Islam quite late and their form of they converted to Islam around I think 10th 11th century so Mahmud gazni is probably father or grandfather was Buddhist Mahmoud gazni was talk many of our Invaders Delhi Sultans mughals mughals were Toko Mongols the Delhi sultanswer talks uh they didn't speak Urdu they didn't look like ranveer saying to us they would have looked you know Chinese they weren't actually Chinese but to us they would have looked that way because they were they had Mongolia features from circulation um now uh they were actually many of them were Hindus many of them were Buddhists you know so we'd actually influenced many of them as well and these Concepts were spread throughout southeast Asia was was uh Hindu uh China Japan were Buddhist so many of these Concepts had actually spread uh across the world I'd


Concepts had actually spread uh across the world I'd love to know some stories you know from some maybe like a Parsi expert like a zoroastian expert about what their outlook on divers or Devas was lovely to know it yeah because it's even zorationism is you know is a very high philosophy very intelligent uh religion I love exploring uh their philosophies and even in that region you know for example there's an ancient uh uh ancient tribe in the Middle East called the mitani and there were maybe two and a half three thousand years ago uh uh and they were almost certainly not Indian of Indian tribal origin uh but they used to start their treaties with a prayer to Lord Indra and Lord Varun right it's very interesting you know how Concepts could have spread among the most popular religions for uh Roman soldiers was mithraism and where does mithraism come from Mitra so which comes from zorationism and and Vedic Vedic Hinduism so many of these Concepts had spread


Hinduism so many of these Concepts had spread across and like I said it was a much more nuanced approach uh to life not a simplistic good evil asuras are demons all bad Devas are you know all good no there was Nuance across all one last question in this Asura dhana of angle you know in Mahabharata there's a story about how Bheem kills uh one particular rakshasa who eats uh a lot of food and then also a human being like a village has to send uh bakasur what do you think this actually was was it was a cannibal warlord or something I think many of them were also probably uh uh in the Rama and kills uh dhana in the forest in the Dundalk Forest whose entire body was essentially a large mouth right and then uh uh how he kills him and then releases him from his curse and among the allegories that was uh you know that was in that was this was this was a man who had no control over his


this was a man who had no control over his appetite are modern human beings that way do we have no control over our appetite we are destroying much of Mother Nature we are destroying the Earth to buy brands that frankly we don't which aren't really giving us happiness we keep changing our phones every two three years uh perfectly good phones uh companies design it that way also so that your uh you know they'll slow your phone down after two three years so you're forced to upgrade we are keeping on consuming things and destroying Mother Earth for it and we only and finding happiness so are we in that sense we've lost control over our appetite uh uh because consumption cannot be the only purpose of life right you know there's value to it I'm not denying it you know but it can't be the only purpose of life how do we find that uh balance once again I think some of these stories are perhaps allegorical yeah 100 I also think that this is not the first kalyug there's


think that this is not the first kalyug there's probably been many colleagues on this Earth itself yeah no that that is actually true and in our tradition yes certainly uh so there's uh because there are various you know and and ages are fair to do many of those one mothers we have a different ways we ask in each one month uh so yes there are it goes through these Cycles yes at the end of this particular episode what's your new book about uh This Book Is War of Lanka it is the fourth book of The Ram Chandra series uh as you know the first three books of the ramchandra series were in a multi-linear narrative like roshamon the Japanese movie Akira Kurosawa I'm sure you must have seen that because look a story rides on the shoulders of the characters and if you understand the main characters deeply then you understand the story in a deeper manner so the first book Ram Saina vikshwaku was from the birth of Lord Ram to the kidnapping


from the birth of Lord Ram to the kidnapping of goddess Sita Sita Warrior of mithila from her birth to her kidnapping and the third ravan enemy of arawarta was from ravan's birth through the time he kidnaps goddessita so three parallel multi-linear narratives all ending at the same point the kidnapping of goddessita War of Lanka is moves onwards from the from the kidnapping of goddess Sita up to the death of ravan and the return of the royal couple to ayodhya to celebrate the first Diwali so this onwards is a common narrative so having understood the three main characters you can kind of enjoy the main story and that is the fourth book War of Lanka more than half of it is actually the war so yes of course it has a lot of action scenes and but like like my typical books it has philosophical discussions and uh twists and turns which will hopefully blow your mind one very rude question for you to end this episode


one very rude question for you to end this episode which is that uh why doesn't Bollywood approach you more or people like yourself more to kind of help with projects like I this is one trailer that came out of a movie called ADI purush which is getting blasted on Twitter okay or just blasted generally uh and we're living in a country where honestly half big movies are getting released and badly we have people like yourself who are writing on this deep philosophical level why doesn't Bollywood come to you guys you know actually there are discussions uh so uh one of my books well Dave I'm producing myself uh into a movie and uh series also you'll see uh some stuff soon so it will come out it will come out okay uh uh there are good guys in Bollywood some guys who may not understand it too well some guys who do uh you know and they're I'm sure uh you know we're gonna have like I said one movie that we are on already if the script is


movie that we are on already if the script is ready it's it's moving into production uh and you'll see some stuff on the other stuff too one last question what's worked for you in terms of technically people my age are your TV yeah your audience so what have you noticed as a writer writing for my generation in terms of what has worked in your writing which appeals to one entire generation you this is like you know hindsight analysis obviously because it's not that I planned it I just wrote you know what what came to me um but if I do hindsight analysis I think among the reasons why my book succeeds and yes you are right most of my readers are actually the youth older people also read my books but my my TG is largely 30 under so as young as you know even 10 11 even they are reading my books um a few things one uh they want a good fast-paced story uh my books are and I've been told that even if it's wanted 500 pages most people finish


that even if it's wanted 500 pages most people finish it in a day or two yeah they can read through it very fast uh second uh I think today's youth want to hear a a rational kind of scientific take uh on things so you know if we are saying that Ram setu was built give me a scientific explanation for how it was made right a rational kind of plausible reason which is what I do in my book it's not that I plan it it's just that's my attitude I tend to look at things from I am deeply spiritual but I tend to also look at things from a scientific rational basis perhaps like to find a balance between my right brain and left brain and that is perhaps another thing that works the third thing why I think it works is there's an assumption and my first book you know models of malua was rejected by every publisher it was sent to and I was told that uh basically I have these Gyan sessions every few chapters and I kid you not one


sessions every few chapters and I kid you not one of the people one of the Publishers who rejected it and actually told me you want to make it mask you have to dump it down right because the youth aren't you know they don't have the capacity which is you know uh in fact among the most intelligent questions I get at litfest Etc actually from youngsters because they are thinking deeply about these issues so I think they like deeper thinking I mean I put Clues on my books the section breaks the cover has hidden Clues and the brummy script which I don't explain and the only ones who decode it are usually the youth right because they they want to go deeper and the fourth you know final thing I'll give uh I think um I think the youth want to hear liberal modern messages but they don't want to hear it from Western or westernized people talking down to us that that gets a backup you know so some American or you know New York Times or guardian or BBC will come


know New York Times or guardian or BBC will come and tell you you dirty Indians I will improve you with my Superior liberal culture like f of course who the hell are you to tell us right uh anything but we do want to hear liberal modern messages the Indian youth but they want to hear those messages from our own Gods our own Traditions right and again I'm not saying I planned it but luckily I am deeply proud of our ancient culture but I'm I think I'm also liberal and and modern because I actually think our ancest uh ancient stories are deeply liberal so I speak of women's rights I speak of LGBT rights I have a gay relationship I show a gay relationship between two Warriors and it's not uh it's not a parody unlike some Indian movies which make it a parody they're just two Warriors who happen to be in love with each other right uh so I think the Indian youth like that as well that they are liberal and modern on women's


well that they are liberal and modern on women's rights on various other issues but those liberal modern messages come from our Gods from our goddesses from our heroes not from a western or westernized Indian talking down to us perhaps these are the reasons they do well I think I mean sir I think there's a lot more books left to come as well and you said that your blessings are gonna get over at some point I think they're gonna get over the moment of your death because we spoke about death this much I'm not wishing for you to die just highlighting uh the themes of this episode learning from you always so thank you for being on the show again thank you I hope you had fun I had great fun you got me to say things I've never really said before you're good thank you so uh meeting you for the first time person and I'm glad we recorded this session let's go thank you for today don't have too much to say about this particular episode but what I will


to say about this particular episode but what I will say is that the joy of podcasting is that you really get to explore the subconscious mind and the complete Vibe of the person you're podcasting with Amish so is very eloquent extremely good with his words extremely creative but at his core he has this amazing intensity which I hope you got a glimpse of through this conversation I've been waiting to do this particular episode with him for the longest time and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did happy to call this man a friend in my life now and happy to always be learning from his books the messages within his books and of course now the podcast that he creates some humans are just built to be podcast guests and this is one of those humans for more conversations like this make sure you follow us on Spotify every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world much more fantastic content coming your way [Music]


you know in one of my books she would shivrai's wife kutala Rani asked him what is what Freedom means to you so he tells her in simple words Freedom means to me that I must do what I want to do and I must refuse what I do not want to do which was not the case in his growing up yours which was not the case with most of the maratha clan he knew he wanted to attack the moris first he wrote lot of letters to Moritz please territory and his jogging and collecting taxes and you know they were torturing Farmers so shivrai says stop all this and join me against my fight against then one lobby was formed antiboslaved Lobby because here shivra they were jealous of shaji Raja and shivrai was you know asking them to do things which were unheard of welcome to part two of a special Trilogy on chatapati shivaji Maharaja the last one was about the context the prequel to shivray's birth this one will focus on his


to shivray's birth this one will focus on his early years his early Ascent to power but moreover it will also focus on his philosophy how did this great story begin how did the beginnings of the maratha Empire actually begin what were the foundation Stones there's a lot of history lessons in this one there's a lot of philosophical lessons in this one and when we're talking about a great king like shivray there's a lot of psychology involved as well episodes like this are the reason I love history I'm gonna let you all head straight into the episode remember to follow us on Spotify every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world because TRS is a Spotify exclusive part two of our Chevrolet special with medha Bhaskar and ma'am is here enjoy [Music] this is going to be one of the most epic TRS episodes again for part two of our Indian history special on chatrapati shivaji Maharaj part one was all about the mughals and the


part one was all about the mughals and the setting before shivrai's birth at the start of that episode ma'am you kind of Drew out a picture of India at the time and how it wasn't entirely under Mughal rule it was primarily under Mughal rule but specifically let's talk about the Deccan Plateau and more specifically Maharashtra what was happening yeah very good question uh when shivray was born that time Shahi which reigned in Supreme in Maharashtra at that time the mughals tried to capture it the same because see geopolitically the biggest border with mughals Southern border was the northern border so the first thing when you descend from the north you come to the latabad which is in Maharashtra near Aurangabad and Aurangabad was the capital Deccan capital of the Mughal it was named after aurangzeb it was first known as what in Urdu kirki in Marathi means the window the window to the Deccan it used to be known as and when


Deccan it used to be known as and when aurangzeb came as the Mughal subedar he was stationed at Aurangabad and he named that as Aurangabad okay so you they descended down they wanted to come to uh they wanted to capture more and more of the Deccan and the first first station was laizamshai who were the nizamsha he's ethnically like where were they from originally there is a story they say uh Brahman Hindu was converted and then he became the first nice son okay so they were the decanese okay so um so they the first station for the Mughal attack was nice I will tell you history in brief from akbar's time they were trying from Akbar and then jahangir and then um Shah Jahan all tried to capture the Deccan they wanted those provinces those vassals to become the provinces of the Mughal why that's very good question okay is excellent question I will tell you what was the strategy of the Mughal Empire how


what was the strategy of the Mughal Empire how they expand their army how do they expand their army by adding more and more mansabdas they already had eight thousand months of that 20 percent of the land of 22 Mughal provinces were under mansadas now if I want to add on more mansadas what do I need to give them some books land I need to give them land so they can rule and they can collect I mean there is there were military mansadas and then there were civil months of that even if you are a doctor in the Mughal Darbar you are a month but you will not get the uh Cavalry Force you will get this you will not get the land you'll get salary but the warmansadas they were given land and the land was over from 22 provinces 80 percent of the land was distributed among 8 000 months of Das so if you want to expand the Army you are you need to add more one sadas and you need to give them land where would they get the land


to give them land where would they get the land they will go to Afghanistan that side or they will come to the Deccan because North East that arakan and those were very they were all watery marshy regions there was nothing you could grow there there was probably uh more primitive people more primitive people they couldn't deal with so what what were Mughal aiming at they either could have taken now they tried they wanted Rajasthan they were independent marwar and mewar kingdoms they wanted they were independent but all the kings of those were working in the mughalami but they were allowed to return their retain Their Kingdoms not all of them but some of them because maybe even indirectly they were also mansabdars but in other in the case of other mansadas you you are a transferable today you are there this is very important today you are given a province of Punjab some Villages and towns tomorrow you if you lose the favor of the emperor he may transfer you to the Far East I


emperor he may transfer you to the Far East I mean Northeastern Borders or Northwestern borders which are not very good so other mansadas in in the uh Empire of the mughals the mansabdas were transferable entity and you could not the the mansadas children could not inherit the same title as the mansabdar okay as soon as the mansada died all his perks were taken away so what happened to the families we don't know families were gone if one of the sons were able then the emperor it was on Emperor's whims and fancies I would not say even Merit wins and fancies um you know I often think of telephones because I'm an electronics and telecommunication engineer okay and when you study early communication you realize how much it's changed human existence and then you think of these massive Empires that existed in history without telephones and communication so I'd always ask myself how did someone sitting in Delhi control Afghanistan Bengal Maharashtra Kashmir all these places and very good question there


Kashmir all these places and very good question there were Scouts okay the scouts we used to come from each province every day the scouts will come and give the information to the emperor every day this is what's happening here this is what's happening yes okay but even the system in itself the manzada system which is landlords basically I don't know if you watch Game of Thrones yes so it's sort of like that there's a king in the center and then everyone else yes report the other great houses report to the king yes um and just like Game of Thrones Real History is as brutal it is even Stranger Than the guy who wrote Game of Thrones R.R Martin someone asked him that how dare you write such horrible stories which are so gruesome yeah and his response is oh you think this is gruesome go read real history and you know people associate dark real history with Europe but some darker [ __ ] has happened in India of course of course Dhaka


happened in India of course of course Dhaka [ __ ] has happened in India I agree with you okay so the thing is um now you know the scenario you know and what happened in the Deccan the kings were little more they were Shia kingdoms but some do not agree so the north mughals were the Sunni and then the South where the Shia kingdoms say Adil Shahi and also kutup Shahi they are descended from Afghanistan or I don't know where exactly but they were not the part of India so they so what happened then they were little liberal and they allowed jagirdars now the Mansa we are talking about the mansadas of the Deccan jagirdas were more relaxed once the land was given then jagridas children could actually it is not inheritable but they could inherit in the South so they were like kind of more relaxed the jagridas here they became Rich they started building forts fortresses they had their own Sentinels their own Army uh


they had their own Sentinels their own Army uh of course they kept the Cavalry for the shahads so and in in Isam Shahi before it was destroyed by the forces of the Mughal and Adil Shahi together it's a full politics was a next bent into two parts some part went to the Mughal and some part went to adilshai it was annexed you defeated no they were defeated shivra's father shahaji raje fought for he he was fighting for the naizam okay but he surrendered to Adil Shahi and he was posted to Bangalore because he had a large maratha following when I say maratha I'm not talking about the cast there was no caste as maratha maratha means Marathi speaking it can be Brahmin maratha which are the skilled workers like Carpenters or goldsmiths I'm talking about them okay maratha means Marathi speaking why did you say that like in the modern day it has a cast yeah it has a cast intonation but those


a cast yeah it has a cast intonation but those days no caste as maratha cast existed in chhatrapati shivaji's times okay I'm very clear about that when I talk about maratha henceforth it is the Marathi speaking sure like I'm a Morata don't ask me my cast because I am simply Marathi speaking though I don't believe in cast and religion I think what we refer to as maharashtrian in the modern day that's what you're trying to say I'm talking about maratha is maharashtrians okay so he had a large maratha following so they didn't want to kill him outright so he was posted to Bangalore away from the mountains now you will realize what I talked in the first episode is that most of this Kingdom Emperors Empires and the sultanates depend on heavy duty cavalry maintained Cavalry forces and where this Cavalry was as weak as a ship stuck in sand where will it be can you logically tell me now I'm asking you question where


logically tell me now I'm asking you question where this Cavalry will be rendered useless is in the mountains how do you go heavy duty Cavalry cannot enter mountainous region it is like a huge ship stuck in sand or ice so this region the the the naisam has given some kind of uh land to shahajiraji 100 villages Thousand Villages I'm sorry Thousand Villages were given around Pune he was also given uh shivneri the fourth near nashik area but that portion went to the Mughal so they had to leave where shivray was born in shivneri his name comes from that Court it is near nashik and nashik region so when they came to Pune the entire region was devastated Thousand Villages were devastated in his jagir because the Deccan sultanates allowed the jagirzdas children also to carry on with the title so shivrai came he was hardly maybe seven eight years old when he came to Pune it was devastated by Mughal and


to Pune it was devastated by Mughal and um and adilshai forces temples were gone I mean they were all in dilapidated state and uh the the marathas from the Adil Shahi the marathas from adilchai they had um tilled the land with donkeys and there was a Superstition if you till the land with donkeys and if you grow there's something you try and grow uh food there your family will go so the entire region was like grown with babul trees I am also a farmer okay so I tell you how difficult it is to remove bubble trees from a cave from a farm if while removing one or two um seeds go into the soil again the bubble trees will go what is a bubble tree bubble tree is the spike they have spikes you know the ponds okay honey trees so the entire region was covered with bubble trees it was basically not good for farming it was cursed land inauspicious in simple words okay so when what happened I feel my


words okay so when what happened I feel my instinct when shahaji Raja went to Bangalore he kept jisa jija Mata and his son shivray he took his older son there she was older sister older brother sambhaji his name is also sambhaji he took him there to Bangalore with him but he kept his wife and shivray and asked him to look after the region because if he leaves see suppose you leave this house unattended encroachment may be there yeah same way that was his estate no he wanted somebody able and he knew his wife is very able to supervise the region uh couple of questions here yeah uh in the last episode we spoke about aurangzeb yeah now what part of aurangzeb's timeline is going on at this time he's become emperor no he's still a prince yeah this is a very good question you know you know why I'll tell you he's the prince still a princess he's nowhere near that uh Mughal Throne okay Throne okay


near that uh Mughal Throne okay Throne okay Peacock Throne to be precise so he is fighting his own battles in uh he was sent to Kabul and he is now once he was in Deccan then he was again sent to Kabul and again he came back to Deccan all this when this was happening the Mughal forces that uh shahaji had to deal with were uh shajan's forces and why do you say that and there was a another soldier with along with whom he fought his Malik Amber Malik Amber is a fantastic character in this entire history Malik Amber was working for and he fought along with sahaji raje to protect naisham Shahi before it was annexed by the Mughal and the adilshai forces okay Malik Amber was a slave boy from African continent he was bought by somebody and bought to Aman nagar and he was that um Sardar called Amber he was trained in military tactics and made a Sardar he was


military tactics and made a Sardar he was even sold he was taken to Afghanistan and sold there in where I was born so I'm connected with history I feel and like you said African continent is there any slave trade yeah but which country could it possibly be I think it is Ethiopia I'm not sure he was Ethiopian slave wow so there is some uh black history here as well yeah so he was such an excellent Warrior and he now marathas will jump at me but I feel his gorilla tactics there is no gorilla Warfare gorilla tactics it was so excellent I feel Instinct that shahaji raje might have learned that tactic from him and he must have learned certain things from shaji Raja and he was so devoted to nizam after he is death the whole collapsed naizam's son became a traitor a Malik Amber's son became a traitor really so there is a big history in that was there a lot of African influence on India in this period no


of African influence on India in this period no not Malik Amber I am talking about just and somebody even asked me why don't you write a book on Malik Amber but it's a very big history and you know writing a book is not easy you have to go into complete Research into that you have to do a lot of research but he was an interesting like near Joomla I'll tell you later this was an interesting character okay he's also in my books he's there in history okay so this was going on and then Saji Raja had to surrender he was transferred to Bangalore and uh shirai came with his mother to Pune so there are two things you must remember see there are two types of subedars one is Mughal subedar he is given a province and you know most of the Mughal princes were subedar subedar means you look after a province similarly in in the Deccan also there was subedar look after this province and you are a subedar you are in charge of


and you are a subedar you are in charge of the jagirdas so being this mountainous region and not yielding much of uh food the there was no Adil Shahi did not appoint any subedar when shivrai was growing up in Pune so he had nobody to report to in the sense there are no sugar okay which which probably meant that that relaxed mentality that other rulers had worked against them a little bit exactly even shivra's father was thousand kilometers away 809 to Bank in Bangalore in those days now you can fly within an hour those days it was far away it was like staying in Mars this is this is the point in the podcast where I have to quote of my idol Joe Rogan Hard Times build Hard Men Hard Men build soft times soft times build soft men and soft men build hard exactly this happened I mean it probably this was a soft time for the nizamshai and others so I'm talking about the flaws what Shiva saw so when he was


the flaws what Shiva saw so when he was growing up his he had no subedar to report to he had no father figure they were advisors they were advisors like you know his say who became his uh sir now but um they were advisors and there was this um Brahmin advisor who became the chief Pradhan was that the chief minister all these were his advisors I will get the names as I go along yeah so but he was the jagirdar's son so they bowed down to him and the freedom he tasted by Instinct he what he he there's no subedar and there's no Father Figure so he tasted the complete Freedom there you know in one of my books she would shivray's wife putala Rani asked him what is what Freedom means to you and I was like when I was writing this book sometimes I was possessed with Chira and sometimes I was possessed with aurangzeb so I thought like unintentionally I started thinking like them you know I became


I started thinking like them you know I became crazy and mad I'm telling you this frankly no I love it so when the wife asked him what does freedom mean to you shivray she asked her husband so he tells her in simple words Freedom means to me that I must do what I want to do and I must refuse what I do not want to do which was not the case in his growing up ears which was not the case with most of the maratha clan he knew who were working and in for the mughals marathas are generally a warrior culture and and it's not necessary you don't look at it that way no maratha is Marathi speaking so those families some families claim that they are from the rajput origin which I do I have not found the concrete evidence in history but there were some families who had capability of becoming Warriors and they were taken in as Warriors into the southern s or in uh into the Mughal Empire and they


or in uh into the Mughal Empire and they were given land but I'm also talking specifically about the mentality of the marathas back then and again my reference unfortunately is some Bollywood movies like when we when we see bajirao being depicted it's depicted like of warrior culture which is the legacy of shivrai but I'm asking you before shivrais are sent to power over there it simply worked for the sultanates there wasn't a warrior mentality they were so they they were the Warriors of the sultanates they fought for the Sultana okay okay some families many of the very cultivators now how can all the families be Warriors they were cultivators they were priests then they were technical the the skilled labor like did that change after shivaji maharaja's Ascent now you're talking about shivray's history so what he started doing he started uh you know he started thinking when he was growing up he saw dilapidated forts so he knew that one fort he learned that


so he knew that one fort he learned that that if you are 10 people on the fort you can fight thousand people who are at the Foothills because you are at the you can throw anything NAFTA balls and you can even simple rocks you can throw from height Advantage yeah from the height and fight with them what I always tell I don't know there are certain things which I go along which nobody ever thought even not even the Hindu Kim's Kings for 2000 years so I feel shivra had the IQ of he could have he made an equation like e is equal to m c Square that level of things he thought then you know scientific things so I sometimes equate him with Einstein so how he thought that how nobody else thought no other Hindu king not even vijayanagar Empire Hindu Kings thought that why so first thought was I must these are these are simple things how he when he grows up what he thinks was his vision that's different that is like e is equal to


vision that's different that is like e is equal to m c Square so he thought if I take this those dilapidated Foods adilchai was relaxed they had joint hand with the Mughal so those forts around Pune were used as brothels and they the the the the granaries were not looked after the walls were not repaired uh the whole structure was falling and the people staying there were very casual so they were not in fighting Spirit nothing was maintained you have to maintain a food how you maintain a food it has to be maintained strong the outer wall has to be strong and no enemy should penetrate inside that Fort the granaries must be full so even 500 Sentinels or Warriors or foot foot soldiers come they can stay there the rain harvesting uh has to be the the the Lakes have to be cleaned and maintained so you have drinking water so food maintenance is not a joke and they were not maintaining so shivra thought if I can just take over these Foods


thought if I can just take over these Foods and repair them and make them fighting fit I will have a base here and jagirdas what jagirdas many jagirdas can have thoughts like me so they juggle their system itself there is a flaw why would a king Outsource see that time the real power was with the jagirdas the Shahs and even to an extent the emperor were titular heads what power they had if they are Outsourcing the Army are you trying to say that aurangzeb possibly wasn't as powerful as we think no he was so I'm saying you know how shivrai saw the floods so that optical illusion which the mughals created that is why I said in the first the optical everybody was scared of that optical illusion that they are so powerful it was like how in big companies to scale you have something called company culture that makes everyone think in a certain way so maybe the Mughal Empire had a culture oh he's a Emperor you better


had a culture oh he's a Emperor you better respect him no they used to have parades they used to have parades in Delhi to show that and through the roads of Agra to show how powerful they are yeah yeah they were uh you know uh there was a show of power but it was optical illusion oriented power yes and they had agadis or they they had their own Cavalry Force the um the emperor himself and they were only good for parade those soldiers they're not good for Battlefield dress well beautiful go go on the Cavalry then we'll come the elephant Cavalry then we'll come the camel Cavalry and it will run through Agra streets Delhi streets it's just a show and our Kings and those where they became vassals that optical illusion they created So what shivrai had that time Thousand delaped Villages and no collection culture the land was not cultivated cultivated so when dadaji kondave and now everybody gets angry when they talk about dadaji kondev because there


angry when they talk about dadaji kondev because there is a split between brahmins and marathas you know now they have created a cast called maratha what he did he guided shurai in he was not his Guru I mean not called Guru shivrai had his own instincts nobody can be a guru for a person like shivray but what he indicated that we can remove this curse by tilling the land with a golden plow plow they cover what they call it so they tilted they made a small gold block and they till they they till the land by with shivray shivra till the land and they said now the curse is gone and they went from mountains to Mountains from forest to Forest and brought back the cultivators which were hiding there so then the cultivation started then when the cultivation started then the the the they've started paying taxes some legitimate legitimate money started coming in shivra's treasury just want to highlight one concept from the world of geopolitics here all wars


concept from the world of geopolitics here all wars are one or Lost based on Logistics yes economics economic so before you actually go to war you fix your Logistics yes yes so when the money started coming in skilled workers like balutedar started coming in then the Puna became a hub of activity so first you become rich before doing your mission your mission no then he started he started with 100 training Farmers what he said he he was very clear once the forts were acquired he needed to man them in in Marathi it is called shibandhi or Fort Cavalry a fort not Cavalry sorry fourth Soldier for Fort not food soldiers fourth soldiers so you go and he wanted to man The forts with soldiers so how so what he told the people many of them balutedars and kunbis and brahmins also you do your work for six months in rainy season you become my Soldier when you are not doing your work so he started training that so this was a start and he shivra


training that so this was a start and he shivra acquired few Foods around how he acquired he just went there paid them some money because now he got some little money from the uh from the agriculture tax you know because the land was getting tilled and they were growing some grains so he got little money and he started training some people um marathas Marathi speaking I mean swords he got and yeah he's a jagirdar son after all he knows the tactics he knew what his father was doing he had seen it while growing up so he started training the people and then Manning the Forts and repairing them people say that he found a gold pot of gold coins in one of the forts but you know those are hypothesis or stories which I don't know I I I have no history to maybe it is true maybe it is not so he manned the Forts and there was one fort called purandar he meant that there was there was the fourth Commander there he took shivrai


there was the fourth Commander there he took shivrai took him in confidence or and then he took over purandar also he took took over uh kondana which was later known as sinhagat then few other forts he took over around so then Adil Shah woke up what the hell is happening around that area then he called shaji Rajan said what is your son doing how old was shivra at the time in his early teens early teens yeah I think 15 16 not 18 also and he had figured out economics and business exactly that is what I'm saying how I don't know how it the thoughts came he was in his teens only when this was all happening then sent the message to Dada jukondev that see what shivra is doing why is he doing these things he was you know he already because he was doing so great he was taking he was fighting from Bangalore for now Adil Shah and he was taking over Temple towns of south from um vijayanagar Empire which


towns of south from um vijayanagar Empire which was breaking down anyway so he had acquired certain kind of respect in the heart of Adil Shah so when he had acquired that respect he had organically created enemies and there were some marathas and some Muslims were his enemies one of them was afzal Khan so he was creating enemies so history said now I don't know whether it is correct history because I have read it in Bakers which are you know you pay commissioned writing so I don't know really not in true correspondence so they say he was captured and taken to uh bijapur and he was you know asked questions but the bottom line is that he said to Adil Shaha my son is beyond my control do what you want to do with him because you think he secretly knew that the sun will still rise to power anyway he had no idea at that time I feel how will have anybody can he nobody can predict Future Okay so he said this that I cannot


predict Future Okay so he said this that I cannot control my son he does not listen to me you do what you want with him then that time adirsha sent the first Force to when shivray was in purandar Fort the whole adilshai Force may be a thousand or two thousand five thousand I'm not sure if which is there in my book Cavalry forced to purandar and for the first time in history an independent maratha jagirdar's son defeated the Invaders first that purandar at the Foothills adilsha adilsha sardars were killed and then they went back to Victory which gave him complete confidence hmm okay so purandar's first history was after that then things started rolling fast now he wanted what he wanted to get the marathas maximum amount of marathas into his fold and fight against adilcha nobody joined him why other than one family of course they were they did not see success there it's a death trap it's a debt I mean they were really reluctant to join


debt I mean they were really reluctant to join there was one such maratha family called the mores they were in the valley of jawli see if you see geographically his this is Puna shivray then knew that going towards East towards bijapur is futile because he cannot his Force cannot fight which battles face-to-face battles against a great Cavalry Force because he doesn't have strength he doesn't have money so where would he go where will he expand his territory is only western side konkan which is still very there are treacherous slopes if you see the sahyadri slopes the entire region is mountainous coken itself is not good for heavy duty cavalry so how he thought about this I don't know so I give him full marks for that thinking that he's he knew very clearly that konkan is my next um station where I would acquire konkan and Rule I can expand my territory he was also looking to expand the territory more agriculture attacks so he but to


the territory more agriculture attacks so he but to acquire konkan it was not like a national highway today we go to Puna Bombay easily they were treacherous tracks I got the map of those tracks also in my book of course I have not made it it is adopted from another book so he needed the valley which la which now lie between uh the Puna region and konkan that is value of jawli which is dense then it was where pratapgarh Fort is now there if you had gone there the value of jowli on the banks of koena koena flows through that the river going that was too dense and the mountains were more treacherous they were like imposing they were like falling on us as if if you see those mountains I have seen Alps you know they look manicured little things in front of if you go to sahyadri in this region jawli region so he want the mores were ruling jaoli now see the now you'll have to think of History very hard


the now you'll have to think of History very hard like I would say please pay attention to this part of History he wanted to attack the moris and now he was in his 20s he wanted to take over the first he wrote lot of letters to Moritz please join me so maurya said nothing doing who are you mores were also very arrogant they were collecting coming to shivra's territory and his jogging and collecting taxes and you know they were torturing Farmers so shivrai said stop all this and join me against my fight against then one lobby was formed anti-boastly Lobby because here shivra they were jealous of shahaji Raja and shivrai was you know asking them to do things which were unheard of it was the first time the name bhosely is coming up on this episode so you'll have to give some context to the list so mostly uh shivra's surname was Bosley okay okay so that is a family okay so that Lobby was getting formed you know and it was headed by


was getting formed you know and it was headed by abzal Khan it was all political nothing to do with religion these are against you know it's all political for power and money and money and of course the fame so and absal Khan has its own Deep's insecurities because he was the son of a cook in the bijapur's Darbar and he was always looked down upon by the rich Muslim and Hindu and Afghan and all those Sardar so he wanted to show now I have arrived so he was trying to you know for power he was fighting then Maurice refused to help that same year 1656 shivray attacked the value of jawli at the same time Prince aurangzeb was attacking Hyderabad to get military power in the South that I told you no so 19 1656 in February March when Shira attacked uh value of dowli aurangzeb attacked Hyderabad on the last episode we spoke about Mughal War tactics I would like to know what a teenage shivray and a


like to know what a teenage shivray and a 20-something shivray did with his Warfare tactics because they couldn't have been the same different uh number of soldiers different terrain Etc so what was the specialty of this Force because I feel like maybe when the Empire actually scaled it was a most scaled up version of how they started in terms of warfare so I keep hearing this term guerrilla warfare when it comes to Marathon first of all there is no such word as gorilla Warfare it's wrong what is the right thing is Gorilla tactics um okay what does gorilla mean the name has come from that uh Chef that um South African guy you know who fought yeah South America yeah yeah South African South American yeah yeah that the word is come from there uh in Marathi it is called ganymikawa okay so when you see when your force is very small and you don't have enough Force actually uh then then what you do you try other tactics like suppose the Mughal cavalcade


other tactics like suppose the Mughal cavalcade is going you attack the Vanguard or the back tail and loot or you show them you you wait in ambush and attract the some of the Mughal forces or sultanous forces and when they come to that spot they are nowhere to go attack them and kill them or suppose you are a Mughal Sardar and posted you're fighting your um Aman nagar and you need large amount of food and the the food is coming from Aurangabad the full food chain with you know uh mules and oxen mounted grains and all that you attack that chain and divert it to your region and fully loot that so you are not you are deprived of food and even water these are all the gorilla tactics there are many many gorilla tactics for example Scorch Earth policy Scotch Earth policy then suppose uh you are sitting in a town a walled City foot and around the farmers and cultivators and the great some other forces coming Outsiders


and the great some other forces coming Outsiders Invaders what you tell the cultivators come inside the wall and feel your wealth and all the water bodies with mud and you're being bring the grains inside the wall City and if you cannot burn the grains means starve the that is scorched Earth policy burn the entire thing and don't do deprive the enemy forces of food and water so that type of tactics what about Weaponry ah like what weapons were used the same weapons swords and javelins but the but see the farmers didn't use no they had to just cover the water bodies with mud so these are all tactics but shivrai's people also used but shivras people were light Cavalry unlike unlike the mughals no helmet no chain no uh heavy duty Shields they some some of them will fight with two hands with the swords because you know this double power doesn't matter if they are killed The Shield is not there so it's relying more on agility agilities speed and uh


relying more on agility agilities speed and uh and capacity to go into places like valleys and riverbeds easily so when he attacked mores he won that Valley he treacherously killed that man what about aurangzeb when he was attacking Hyderabad 17 000 hyderabadi soldiers were massacred and mere jumla who was the chief minister of Hyderabad joined aurangzeb in that battle so then when nobody talks about aurangzeb attacking Hyderabad nobody blames him when Mughal do it it's Wars of expansion when shivraid as it it's treachery how I don't understand so I strongly defend shivra in that okay not for anything else but for the truth's reason you see how did he beat uh the adilsha Empire finally just like this through slice slices Empire killed itself because it's the Adil Shahs died very fast you know Ibrahimovic Ibrahim Adil Shah did not have children okay he adopted Ali okay it became Ali Adil Shah so and he had a mother


Ali Adil Shah so and he had a mother called badi sahiba ibrahim's Ibrahim Adil Shah's wife so this buddy sahiba and Adil Ali Adil Shah where mother and son very lovable you know they were two together very sweet relationship they had mother and though he was adopted yeah what did aurangzeb do when he was a prince in Aurangabad he started writing nasty letters to Buddy sahiba what he said adopt adopting a child is against Islam and you have adopted a bastard whose child we do not know so he is not the legitimate King so you give me back your kingdom or I'll attack and kill you he started bothering her but this Ali adilsha also died quickly and then his four-year-old boy sikandar came on the throne and then there was a big politics so they he was just a de facto he's just a puppet that small boy and the pathan patan's questions and the Kani Muslims and the marathas and all this started


Muslims and the marathas and all this started fighting for power and the African abyssinians is the old neighbor of Africa okay the so the people who hailed from there including siddlis are known as abyssinians this must have been like Somalia Ethiopia yeah so that that this is the side of Eastern Eastern part of Africa because easier to come now so they these sardas started fighting for power and in that fight Adil says you know so it is like hard and soft and hard and soft and when shivrai was there actually the Mughal uh Empire also has become a soft uh Force because their mansadas became so lazy that in one of the fights one of the mansaddar's uh disappeared in rainy season with 400 dancing girls in the mountains of denkan and there mansardas became so lazy that they would sleep on the bed in the night and then four people will take them from they if they wanted to change from one Camp to other Camp he will be sleeping in that luxurious


other Camp he will be sleeping in that luxurious bed and four people will carry him and then they had their concubines and their Artisans and their dancers and their other women everything in the camp hmm so they also became kind of a soft Force you know but how shivrai defeated his actually what blue uh dilshai apart is that the invasion of uh the the Adil Shah I mean afzal Khan's attack on shivray so that was the Turning Point against but that's a long story in short what happened so when uh afzal Khan came to you know he wanted to uh he kept they he got 10 000 Cavalry force and some other 20 000 join him as food soldiers they came from bijapur towards Pune then by then Moritz jawli Valley had been acquired Pratap Gad was built with because morop and pingle was also an architect he helped shivray to build pratapgarh into uh in on the periphery of the jawli valley konkan was near to him


of the jawli valley konkan was near to him now konkan not in his grasp because jawli Valley Valley was with you right now his force was increasing and Abdul Khan was double whammy for absal Khan he hated Shiva shahaji Raji he also hated shivrai for taking off taking value of jaoli because it was he was asked by subedar of Y where javliwali fell into that territory what was happening to shaji Raja at this time he was just he was there in Bangalore he was still conquering things okay so all this was happening when afzal Khan came what did shivrai do his wife Sai Bai was very ill that time so he took he said bye bye to her you know and of course I have made it little uh juicy in my like little emotional to add on so he goes to he goes and hides in pratapgarh and he uh he wants abzal Khan to come to the because you can see koena River from


come to the because you can see koena River from the pratapgarh fort you know like a small River it's a big river but you can see a small stream from that height so he wanted Abdul Khan is parked into why with all these forces so he wants him to come to um the value of jowli and meat that's all a trap no once he comes to value of jowli's forces are useless the ship stuck in sand so with lot of diplomacy which goes on to and forth and and then the discussions and the meetings absal Khan lands with half his military on the banks of koena river and then when they meet at the uh shamiana which is made majestically Beautiful by shivray to honor Abdul Khan he kills but Abdul Khan tries to hold him and kill him in his grip because he has killed one Hindu king before in the meeting and then the story is famous shirai kills him with his hair claws tiger clothes um


kills him with his hair claws tiger clothes um yeah this is the story that I think is one of the most mainstream stories about shivras but this is not his vision what I mean you what happens you know we get lost in these stories and we don't know his vision what was his vision um this incident had actually happened though this has happened where there was a weapon called a tiger claw which you can hide it's a stealth weapon yes so when afzal Khan goes to hug him and crush him through his hug uh shivray pulls out his intestines that's what I have yes understood about it yes okay have you ever seen a version of that weapon yes do you think that it looks like it could kill yes because when I'd seen a version of it in I think the Mumbai Museum I couldn't understand how it could kill another human being maybe cause a lot of damage for sure yeah damage damage actually he was beheaded afterwards but first damage was done here just


beheaded afterwards but first damage was done here just to loosen his grip but the thing is you know instead of going into this short stories I would love to talk about his vision sure do you think it was the same vision at the start or did this Vision develop it's Vision developed this is the swaraja vision the swaraj vision developed no swaraj he wanted Independence because he knew under the Invaders rule uh the P he he and everybody else the Common Man are the secondary citizens you know so the vision was different so now you know how the Army was developed for the Empire and the sultanates and even the vijayanagar Empire including our old Hindu Empires famous Empires 2000 years ago they had either mansadas or jagirdar or vijayanagar Empire had nayats and even ancient Kings had jagirdars even the British system was like that the land the trust the king will give the land to the trust trust you know landlords whatever I thought what was his vision so


know landlords whatever I thought what was his vision so his vision was I will not Outsource the army I will have my own Army in terms of earlier the jagadas or zamindars had their own micro armies which would come together to fight Wars now you imagine there were 10 months of that all powerful and you are the Mughal Empire Emperor you want to call those 10 months of Das their armies are trained in different way and they all have uh Sky sized king size egos ones are that no they will not get along with each other will they two jagirdas very rare they will have rivalry they will have jealousy who is having more favor from the king who is King's favorite so shivrai thought this system has a flaw this will not do because jagirdas can get powerful I have become powerful I have acquired the forts will come and acquire my foods which I have acquired so I want to demolish jagirdari system by creating an army paid from your


system by creating an army paid from your own Treasury then you are not asking the mansatar which is easiest way take the land to take the agricultural tax and a maintain Cavalry no I will collect the agricultural tax my men will collect the agricultural tax it will go to my Treasury and I will appoint the soldiers and I will pay the soldier from my Treasury and the soldier will report to the king so centralized system versus decentralized systems also beyond that now what we have what we have we have General then we have left in general then we have major general then we have Brigadier then we have um kernel left hand kernel kernel so what does what does this mean this is chain of command you go to any army person whoever is working in the Army and ask that person is it possible to fight a war without chain of command he will laugh he will say not possible what question you are asking what stupid question you are asking he will see he or she okay similarly


are asking he will see he or she okay similarly shivray created this system he created sir now but the Army Commander then he had Pancha hazari then there were hazaris and then they were jumleaders and then they were hawaldars and the entire system had support system of food carriers spies there were regiments and then there were um squadrons these are all creative business ideas at play to create a very strong self-sufficient system and chain of command this he is the first king in India who had envisioned this and created this use there are you I do not know in Indian history I have not seen this kind of chain of command there may be rudimentary chain of command somewhere else in Roman Empire they say the religions and I do not know but I do not think shivray would have read Roman history I don't know whether such kind of chain of command was there in Roman history also so this is his vision Vision number one that my Army will be paid by from my Treasury and there


Army will be paid by from my Treasury and there will be chain of command I do not know where he got the idea from and how it originated from his mind that is mystery of the history this he was his vision chain of command and army will be under me know system in not in my kingdom what else what else now how do you collect agriculture tax they were hereditary watan Das those are the bhumi putras Deshmukh and then there are patils Deshmukh will look after the cluster of villages and patil will look after after a village so they will collect the they will encourage the cultivators they will provide certain tools and fertilizers they will control the cultivators and collect the taxes from them and they will keep some tax and rest they will hand over to the deshmuks and deshmuks will hand over to the jagirdas their portion and jagirdas will keep the cavalry now Veterinary system was a hereditary system if I am avatandar my son


hereditary system if I am avatandar my son will become a vatanda hmm so these vatanda also became very powerful they also built fortresses they had their own Sentinels they had the fights between among themselves very severe fights that one matandas wedding the other watanar will come and Massacre everybody that is there in history maratha history when shivrai was ascending now shivrai was when Shiva was born and growing up he's seen this okay so what was his second Vision I will demolish watan dhari system but when you are trying to demolish watan dhari system like I am a Deshmukh I'm a Meda Deshmukh bhaskaran so somewhere I got the land sometimes so what will I think if I have the land and I am living like a king in my Terrain why the hell I should give up my watandari nothing hereditary everything on Merit my people will come and collect that access and the taxes will go to my Treasury and from where my Soldier will be


my Treasury and from where my Soldier will be paid yeah this is Vision number two nobody had that Vision parties even Akbar and jahangir and aurangzeb could not dislodge them they depended on them when they came to South or anywhere else they depended on these people to collect the taxes so he wanted to demolish this system he he actually received a lot of hatred and anger from the watan Das now we say you know marathas where when I'm not again talking the jat marathas went against him because he started to do the watan dhar marathas they did not like it I mean if anyone's rising to power there is going to be surprising the power he's taking power away from them yeah I mean he's Rising on a national scale national scale no that is another aspect he is taking taking power from me it's coming personal now for me sure it became personal so the ones who opposed were brought down by force yes okay I've done my force their weapons were


force yes okay I've done my force their weapons were demolished he could not do entirely he could not do away with watan Das entirely because the system was like deep rooted in the in the soil of India I would say what else in the vision third is vision is third vision is see when uh when it's a mansabdari system the money paid to the soldiers is not on time because king is not the boss the mansardar is the boss and everything depends on his whims and fancies so money will not be paid to the arrears would rise so some soldiers were not paid five months six months eight months one year vasai calm children what would the soldiers do the Mughal soldiers Troopers they will go into the enemy territory loot take away women and child children as slaves and sell them and make money these are these were the perks of not getting salary instead of salary these perks were given what is the difference between Bacha orange Zeb and shivray they both were not women


orange Zeb and shivray they both were not women they never you know they treated women with great respect both both okay they were one was of course a fanatic one was religious but not vanity most important differences aurangzeb allowed his soldiers to loot the other territory take what you want but with shivray first time in the history he started military law if you harass women and children even in enemy territory you will be executed you will be thrown from the takma talk of raigad food which I find is a third Vision okay it's like nobody military law has now we talk about military law he thought of of it then and he also punished many many people under that law the fourth vision is now we talk about human trafficking but slave trade was flourishing those days Portuguese had become immensely rich and Goa was known as Rome of the Orient it's not rich they had become you know so it's all on slave trade but when shivray you know he went to South later


but when shivray you know he went to South later on his South Victory or our Acquisitions he acquired many 50 forts including Fort of jinji okay that is another story actually that belonged to Adil Shahi he joined hand with Qutub shine acquired this land because it was neglected and he wanted to create second light line of defense against the Mughal so when he took jinji he also got the east coast of Chola mandala he acquired that so he caught called The Dutch um Traders and he this is in history okay we have correspondence on this he told them he said to them that if you do not stop the trade of gulam means slaves if you do not stop your slave trade you will be eliminated I do not want human trafficking in my area um these slaves that were talking about these were Indian people Indian people African people they were men women and there were eunuchs you know and near Golconda near Golconda fort in Hyderabad evidence is there historical evidence


fort in Hyderabad evidence is there historical evidence they were selling 20 000 eunuch boys a year to the empires and the sultanates to look after their um harams so 20 000 we are talking about 20 000 new looks to create twenty thousand new looks you have to first capture uh at least hundred thousand boys out of that because death rate is very high in that crude operation you see um were Indian slaves sold abroad a summer slave of course in konkan what did what was the business of siddhis they will come to the mainland from Fort of janjira which was separated by water they will come capture women and children and send them to Middle East countries what do you think that was slave trade was happening okay and the eunuchs fetched a good price ten times more than ordinary slave because uh to create a eunuch nine other boys died one survived hmm corn do you I mean have any context on which countries the Indian slaves are sold in no they were mainly saved


slaves are sold in no they were mainly saved to say sold to the Mughal Empire their mansabdas also had harams no within within the Indian subcontinent from one place and then never also sent to mascara Oman Oman okay you know that was they were sent eunuch slaves eunuch slaves were sent to Portuguese became immensely Rich also what they did and also shivrai wanted why he wanted to acquire this West and East Coast because Cavalry force is the heart of your army what you need majorly horses so the horses from Arabia came by road to the mughals but horses to uh the southern sultanas came by sea trade so what shivrai thought another vision of is if I take over the coasts and if I take if I build a strong Navy I will stop the horse straight to the Southern sultanates and their Cavalry will become anyway weak they will not get horses how will they get horses so that was all calculus see this is these are


so that was all calculus see this is these are the four Visions one is to create an army to create chain of command to bring in Army law to demolish watan Dari and watanari system and put people on Merit to collect agriculture taxes um the demolish slave trade who had this Vision at that time I think this is a good point to segue into the Navy angle yes I think as far as I understand it was India's first out and out Navy ah you can't I'll tell you what Navy he wanted to another there are two visions into that see first before I go to the go into his vision of Navy now they say they were ancient Kings in India who had uh who had beautiful who had very strong Navy like the Chola Empire so we will see what what shivra's Vision was he did not want to fight battles on sea number one because Portuguese were immensely strong they were the kings of the sea and just like shivra in the beginning did not


and just like shivra in the beginning did not want to fight which battles on the planes with the heavy duty Cavalry of the Mughal and the sultanates similarly he did not want to fight sea battles with the Portuguese what he wanted was see there are only three ways to make legitimate money for a kingdom what are those three ways one is agriculture tax that illegitimate money legitimate is agriculture tax secondly Road tax so There Were Ten Thousand fifteen thousand auction used to carry goods from this place to that place so when they cross through your territory you you have to pay taxes at the nakas they call it you know so they okay third legitimate way of many money making is to take over much to do Merchant ships and send your goods your spices in konkan then your ore you know crude oil of metal that was also there then then explosives there there was a salt bitter salt bitter is a substance which is made in konkan which is put it in