issue is the issue of the mind and both the body and the mind are material and your spiritual doesn't have your spiritual strength or whatever you do spiritually doesn't ensure that these things won't happen so to connect that because I am spiritual I can't have a mental tissue the silliest thing I've ever heard right now having said that there automatically brings in the need for awareness about uh the need for psychological counseling or Psychotherapy right or the need for psychiatric medicine and treatment if the need be I mean imagine a person who's had just come to such a state can just not function medication is going to bring them to a level where he or she can now work upon themselves to start doing other things to function normally correct though sometimes it is taken as a very casual thing and now becomes a routine thing to take medication that I'm not in favor of which is a lot of America which can sometimes you know you can't just routinely do that it's a pill-based society


just routinely do that it's a pill-based society there's a pill for everything it just scares me there's something that's gone wrong and that Soul country and I have nothing against America I look up to that country but they are the leaders of the Free World and they're setting an example of the restaurant everything is Bill oriented so I I do feel that you know we can there's a need for it when there is a need for it but we have to be careful right that we don't just kind of for every little thing I swallow a pill and then I feel better so this is exactly what I had in my mind whenever my second book we energize your mind energize your mind when I wrote the second book during covet the reason was this to explain that talking about your mental health is should no longer be a taboo dealing with your emotions your feelings your grief your heartbreaks your depression your anxiety your guilt they're real things they're real things and I feel we


real things they're real things and I feel we all need tools we all need we all need means by which we can deal with these issues uh either by our own selves or by professional help in as much as we need help when we are ill certain things will have um and things work they work so we'll do it right that self-help in the mental health space yeah join the honey that's the self-help in the mental health space but then there's going to be stuff which ajwain and honey is not good you know I I have a I have a minuscule tear in my knee ajwain is not going to put my tear in place I need to go to a doctor and get an arthroscopy done to fix it um that's professional help whether it's psychology Psychiatry Psychotherapy that's what it is all about so when we wrote this book energize your mind I also felt that that time that just the book won't suffice the book was all about this the entire book is about


book was all about this the entire book is about this emotions dealing with emotions and in my very usual self my own style of anecdotal style of writing my stories I've in fact shared stories where I've become extremely vulnerable right I've spoken about my own issues which for a spiritual leader is not seen in the best light it's not going to be seen in the best light at times because it humanizes you it humanizes me it brings me down from that pedestal whip everybody guruji the the light of the world you know a guruji is not a messiah I like I began by saying he's a human being so I have become extremely vulnerable in the book there and the reason I became vulnerable is to take that whole one to take that whole thing the the artificial Aura around Guru ship then no Enlightenment doesn't mean you won't feel it Enlightenment means how do you deal with it right so I've shared some stories which I've never told anybody in my


some stories which I've never told anybody in my life there's one story in particular nothing big nothing very serious but it does really kind of make me like man I'm come I'm telling this here it could mean and I wrote this in the very introduction in the preface that I'm saying this just so that my vulnerability empowers you to be vulnerable if I can be vulnerable if I can say that it can happen to me man you better take it seriously be honest and say take I need to do something about it so when we did this then I felt that this won't suffice right this won't surprise and like you said therapy that's where I got into the space as well to now come up with an app right which is which goes along with the book which has to do with this which has to do with telling people how to deal with their issues if they don't deal with their issues they're going to have to go to somebody when the things are very serious works


go to somebody when the things are very serious works you may not need to go there so what I want to give is the ajwain hanika nuska whether it's the book or through the app so the book is energized your mind but the app is called monkey fi it launches with the book on the 1st of Jan as well yeah and the variant reason we call it monkey five is because it was about monkey flying your life without being a monk you don't have to be a monk why should anybody have to be a monk I'd also like to highlight that this is no way is anything to do with clinical therapy like that's no no no no no no no yeah absolutely nothing to do with clinical theory that has its own place in the world its own which is why I said this is the Nadine and hanika nuska right and that has its own place so when ajwain doesn't work you realize hey man three days my stomach's hurting my daddy told me take


stomach's hurting my daddy told me take ajwain with some warm water I took it it's been three days four days it's not hurting better I go to a doctor exactly the same exactly the same anything that we offer to the world in the self-help space has only that much help as much as ajoin and water has for a stomach at home yeah and then you will have to have a clinical therapist a psychologist as and when the need is and in the book I have hammered this a billion times billion times that none of these things anywhere spoken by me or anybody is a substitute to that it can't be it can't be these are people who have spent years and years and years learning the science they know it more than any self-help motivational person will know yeah yeah right we may know a little bit from our gut and our experience and we may share that but what they know is way more than what any of us know so the absolutely no substitute to that


us know so the absolutely no substitute to that uh the one thing I'm noticing about a lot of the mental health problems of the people around me is that in my eyes many of them are related to a lack of patience you know lack of patience related to relationships lack of patience related to career and progress It's one of these two things sometimes it could be purpose related right and of course this doesn't encapsulate all the mental health related issues I'm just noticing at least my close friends my team right always patience as a key theme um I don't want to talk about patience myself because I don't think I have learned it either I'm in a rush for a lot of things it's just the only way I know how to play football you know what I mean like I'm the player who will be everywhere on the pitch because I want the ball back uh it's something I'm also trying to learn I don't know why I'm trying to learn it so late in life I should have


to learn it so late in life I should have learned it earlier teach me about patience it will just protect me one thing I really love about you would be I must say this on record and I that even the last time I came on your podcast I very well remember I was talking about vulnerability and even there you have been very vulnerable right you didn't mind saying I don't have this you don't mind saying I think I lacked this at this time in my life you didn't mind saying I think this is my serious problem and I'm looking for an answer to this and that's a very heartwarming quality an extremely heartwarming quality because I Jeff Paulson uh I think it was Harvard if I'm not wrong Harvard Professor who coined this phrase called the vulnerability Loop and the vulnerability Loop is when people in positions of power and people who are known influences leaders CEOs and directors and chairmans of companies corporate organizations when they practice vulnerability to say that oh I made


they practice vulnerability to say that oh I made a mistake or I think I don't have this so I think I lack this at this moment I think I take responsibility for what I did or what I went through it sets up a loop for others to be vulnerable to you know so what it does is my being vulnerable empowers somebody else to become vulnerable as well so I feel that I I did want to say this that even in saying this that oh I don't think I have patience so I really feel that if there be one quality that this probably you have a billion good qualities but there'll be one good quality that I would highlight as the reason for you being who you are today it's this the vulnerability and the humility that because that's what becomes the Catalyst to work on it if you're in a shell thinking I'm okay and I know and I fine I'm fine you're not doing it not getting anywhere but so good good congratulations thank you learned it


so good good congratulations thank you learned it from Ronaldo oh that's really good latest carry a lot of improvement yeah Improvement Begins by knowing that something has to be employed yes of course so uh in terms of patience in particular right mental health issues being connected to lack of patience in either relationships or in uh success at work of career or profession look at it this way look at the generation we live in does our generation does our modern society give us a platform give us a setting to practice patience no it doesn't you want to buy something I mean I'm okay with online shopping no problem I'm not not criticizing anything I'm just saying look at this reality and the facts around why we lived today in the world you want to buy something at the click of a button the thing comes to you right if you get premium membership of whatever service you you are seeking the click of a button it comes to you earlier I would have to stand in a queue for getting a


would have to stand in a queue for getting a Visa right there are many consulates in the world today where I don't have to go to their offices they come to my home along with the Biometrics thing right I have to pay a premium price for it well rather than getting clicked so many places and videoed everywhere probably pay a premium price and then have them come over to my place there's no patience I don't have to stand in a queue I don't have to go to a supermarket or a mall to buy something I don't know how to go to a ticket counter to buy a ticket for my flight I don't have to go to a cinema theater to watch a movie I don't have to do any I sometimes even don't have to do to anything I want you to meet my girlfriend my boyfriend my spouse to be in a relationship sometimes still sometimes a VC right so imagine when you're a generation or when you're a society where everything around us is like this like this you go


everything around us is like this like this you go to you travel around the Western world you just put a coin get a cup of coffee straight out there I don't have to stand in a Queue at Nero to buy a cup of coffee you know so with with the generation like this I'm not too sure if I would blame them for it directly with too much to say they are impatient it's the concrete jungle that's cause the jungle of everything being like this at the you know in a getting to you in a jiffy uh that probably is also very strongly responsible for lack of patience in fact it's not just about the youngsters even if you look at the Elder generation they are they've lost the virtue of patients that they've had normally because they also are into this this kind of business setting now many of them are losing it they had it for years but now it's all become so easy that if they don't get their Pizza on them they will yell at the waiter they


on them they will yell at the waiter they never did that before you know so what's the way out what's the way out of this whole thing we can't change this it's made our life convenient let's accept it like is that is it is there anything denying this that it's made our life convenient Press A Button book a ticket press a button get a knob buy something go to a slot machine put a coin get a cup of coffee it's made a life convenient it was value to it let's start living a little bit more in Awareness to consciously cultivate patients right earlier it was a default thing that would happen today patients won't come by default we'll have to consciously work on cultivating patients right which basically means there are going to be a situations and Avenues in life where things don't necessarily go away you to consciously say I'm going to wait for this we're going to consciously say that affirmation to yourself inside and change yourself talk it's all right to it


and change yourself talk it's all right to it it's okay for me to wait because it's teaching me how to be patient it's teaching me how to learn a very important virtue in my life where really you don't have to tell yourself this stuff you could just get it easily why do you think affirmations work so much now because what used to happen by default has to be consciously done now what's affirmations consciously telling yourself but earlier that wasn't the case it was my default so which is why in the world today any virtue that we need to cultivate in particular patients because that's the point in question uh I think we are going to have to do it in a conscious State choosing to do it being completely aware of it I I didn't go big key Point here and I'm saying this based on other emotions and Concepts I've worked on in my own past for example reducing the amount of anger I feel a very angry human being uh reducing Envy


a very angry human being uh reducing Envy at some point reducing greed at some point correct is to always notice something wrong going on in your head for the first uh time right for example the first time anger starts rising in your head because of a situation first just have you seen that Leonardo DiCaprio meme he goes huh like he points it out uh you need to have that Meme going on in your head where you just pointed out right saying that oh that's what's happening in my hand right the moment you start doing that even as a human being that's it that's the first step just spot it in your own head then switch it into action oh but I'm not gonna react no I'm gonna accept the anger and I'm gonna let it fall through okay because if you let that moment pass you'll see that the angle also passes right same thing happens with greed Envy other negative emotions uh the thing is when you meditate when you live life meditatively mindfully


you meditate when you live life meditatively mindfully you're able to spot these emotions much more easily and switch the action which is why you should be meditating more that's what my next point was when you were saying you can't do it without this so you said it already yeah I think it just gives you a perspective on your own mind it gives you the ability to change what you're feeling of course as a friend of minekar says it's about creating distance between thought and perception thought is your first uh negative emotion perception is how you're looking at that thought um so when it comes to patients know that you're feeling a lack of it you've got to go ah I'm feeling the lack of it again and then learn to cultivate it of course tell yourself that no wait hold on I'll keep doing my work I'll just focus on the work I'll just focus on the actions patients will take care of itself am I right have I missed anything you were 100 right exactly you're


I missed anything you were 100 right exactly you're summing up what I'm saying okay summing up in the world let's let's put a slide of contrast into this I know that a lot of hyper rich people consult with you billionaires and Industry leaders and all that what are their problems like similar to the common man's problems because I don't know I mean of course yes you know they're also human beings right but I'd like to know the differences more than the common animal right right because because every young person today yeah is thinking about being a billionaire or quick money or luxury materialism um you know earlier social status was cars and clothes social status now social media numbers right everyone's chasing that uh lost 100 but uh now go answer yes I you kind of answered your own question by saying that billionaires are human beings too human beings are human beings whether you're a billionaire or not a billionaire uh being a billionaire makes life a little easier on one front on one front


life a little easier on one front on one front your life becomes much easier like somebody did say right I know that a good car can't make me happy and can't bring a smile on my face I know that but isn't it better to cry in a Lamborghini than in a Fiat yeah you'd rather cry in a Lamborghini so have a Lamborghini yeah so so I would say that when it comes to material affluence of having reached a very very high level uh life is easy on one front for sure right for sure everything's sorted for you everything's convenient having said that relationships are what they are every human being is a human being when there's interpersonal interactions interpersonal interactions bring interpersonal complexities and you're not just talking about romantic of course pardon me you're not just talking about romantic no not just about romantic relationships everything else too every other relationship too uh there are insecurities at every level there are insecurities yeah if you're a millionaire you have insecurities if


if you're a millionaire you have insecurities if you're a billionaire you have insecurities there's so much fomo at all levels to energize your mind chapter two is only on fomo because it's that common it's very common a human trait that at every level you're going to feel that oh somebody oh uh I've you know that guy flies first class everywhere he goes because you're a billionaire you fly first class but the other billionaire has the private private jet yeah and then oh This brilliant airflies private jet but in that billionaire owns a private jet yeah but that holder owns a private jet which is just like a 20-seater this guy owes a 400 seater you know what I mean so will there be an end to where you don't see somebody who's up there is always going to be somebody who's up there better than you in some space or the other so I really don't think it's a millionaire or a billionaire issue it's a human issue and as human


billionaire issue it's a human issue and as human beings in whichever social and socio-economic stratum we fall we have to learn to deal with these things right even a billionaire has to learn to deal with dealing with his or her insecurities when they see others as much as somebody who's just a middle class person yeah with a middle class person because he's fancying the comfort so much things that is you know when somebody's down there says they think that happiness lies there they think it happens lies there and they think that once you have it your emotions change because you're not going to think why are those are best but that's not the case I think everybody has their own emotional insecurities everybody has their own relationship issues health issues serious health physical health issues people get family issues that everybody goes through everything we are a society of humans I'm gonna relay some information I have straight from a Billionaire's not I have a friend who's a billionaire self-made and I ask


friend who's a billionaire self-made and I ask them what do you not like about billionaires he said that you won't believe how competitive they are with each other like when they meet there's so much competition about oh I'm at number five in that list no I'm at number four it's so petty the thing is way here as regular folk looking at those lists thinking that whoa those 20 people have done something with their life the truth is that the 19th person is thinking why am I not of the second position it's so strange of course but look at all the people you've gone ahead of look at what you've done with your own life yes uh another friend of mine tanmay buddy is also a YouTuber he had something very cool to say he told me every millionaire wants to be a billionaire and every billionaire wants to be funny but I must tell you this that some of the people in the billionaire League whom I know I mean are real big guys and I mean


know I mean are real big guys and I mean when you talk to some of those people in a very intimate private conversation where they are completely themselves right one other problem with being in a certain space of success is externally you have to put up what you need to do right you have to you have to conform to certain social standards of living but then when you're in a very private intimate space of very authentic very genuine I know some of these very good friends Zuma and very very close they're such deeply authentic and spiritual people all right they base everything that they do and the fundamental principles of the Gita right they are sometimes ruthless in business which is what you have to do when you're in business when you look at them in inside quarters you see them to be so deeply rooted in fact when I've spoken to some of them I can't share names obviously when I've spoken to some of them I see them in a space of mental stability and peace when


them in a space of mental stability and peace when they are out there can't see them peaceful the stress you've got to go they get there right and when I see them behind the scenes I see some of those people like functioning from a space of calm and I feel if I might say that some of those individuals I can't generalize for everybody but some of those individuals I feel because they function from that space of calm behind the scenes they're powerful when they are on the scene which is the side that's not seen by the world and probably they may never show the world yeah they may never show the world but this side to them exists too like we're not only talking about the billionaire issues and the billionaire human sentiments and insecurities we're also talking about some of those who have deep spiritual grounding and it's quite impressive actually when I see them in Sanskrit there's a term called Raju Rishi yeah Raja Raj is a king or an administrator someone who


Raj is a king or an administrator someone who lives in affluence and Rishi is a sage so King on the throne is sage in life some of these people when I look at them I actually feel they are rajourishes when I talk to them in person because they're like a king when they're at work on the CEO or the director's seat them in real life they have such sage-like lives so it's quite uh incredible to see that contrast beautiful contrast you know arjuna's got a fire and arrow through someone's skull and not care about it and then go home and meditate as well of course of course how did the billionaires become billionaires what have you noticed about that that's a personal question uh how did the billionaires become billionaires the mainstream idea of becoming a billionaire is have the right kind of product and the right kind of presentation the only two things that work in the world is a product has to be up there completely different from what everybody else is


up there completely different from what everybody else is giving and your presentation of the product has to be up there because you might have the best product the lousiest presentation finished now the best presentation allows this product finished both come together and then all the strategies surrounding that powerful of course mainstream I think winning closely observe these individuals this this that X Factor that these guys have then many of us don't because of that X Factor is what who they are today right that X Factor I feel personally is their mindset the way they look at things the perspective that they have about things because it's that perspective it's that mindset it's that wisdom that makes them take those decisions it makes them take those risks it makes them take that leap of faith at times some of those perspectives and that wisdom and that Clarity it's probably come to them from their family fathers grandfathers passed down to them some from their reading their gurus their spiritual gurus but a lot from their own life


spiritual gurus but a lot from their own life a lot from their own life and the one thing that I've seen in their life is they just don't feel afraid about making mistakes they don't feel afraid they're not fearful of making mistakes because they very well know that it is a mistakes that shape them the mistake that made them who they are today and even at this stage if they were to make a mistake by taking a risk they're open to it um so I think it's that mindset that mindset is that X Factor that differentiates everybody else from those who are up there I think how are they trying to train their kids are they trying to team their grades it's the train to trying to train their kids in the best possible way by giving their giving what they have learned in their own personal lives what they've received in their family Legacy what they have learned in their own lives and at the same time giving space to their own kids to be themselves we live


to their own kids to be themselves we live in a different generation when they were growing up they work of a very different mindset in their connection to their parents yeah and if their kids today are in a very different mindset and connection with their parents today so the beauty of all of these individuals is that they have they know very well they are aware that while we pass on the Legacy and while we give them what we need to give in terms of our know-how our experience our wisdom our realization it is also very crucial and important to give them that space to see how they can do it their way so I think that's really a very good balance and I've seen that happen a lot of times too okay um so many more questions in life one last question on this episode so yeah I'm gonna break it up into two parts the first part is do you think about your own death and the second part is are you still learning more about death in general because I think it's something that


about death in general because I think it's something that even the billionaires are probably trying to grasp all gonna fade away it's all going to mean nothing when you're lying down your body is being burnt up right right death my own death how do I look at do I think about my own death I do I do think about my own death 100 I do what do you visualize what do I visualize myself when I die I I visualize myself this is what I would want so there's a Sanskrit prayer which is a beautiful prayer which is something that most people include in their daily prayers it's called three things are being asked from your object of worship as blessings one is of course undeviating faith and Devotion to you but two things which really click hard and make very relevant is dependent life on someone so please give me a life and I don't have to depend on somebody at The Fragrant of my life not so much because I feel embarrassed but I don't want to


because I feel embarrassed but I don't want to bother somebody else you know so I which is what leads to the first part of the prayer the first thing that is being asked very seamless death very seamless death which is like Drop Dead one day right no no pain no suffering pain death is painful death is painful in any case whichever way but living to death is very painful like if I'm in a in bed for the 20 years and then I die it was 20 years are more painful than just the moment of the death you know but if I drop dead today death is still painful it's not that it's not painful just going and I know some of my some of the members of our community man the way they left in the last year the way they left this world incredible their spiritual conscience in the temple they were standing in front of the deities their object of worship a very holy auspicious day they looked at their object of worship closed their eyes


looked at their object of worship closed their eyes dropped on dead right there you saw this I my friend one of our monks's father his father is absolutely incredible just absolutely incredible so when I see this when I visualize this in my mind what a dead that would be that you're in a state of spiritual consciousness while you just drop dead all right most people are just regretting I didn't do this I didn't do this I didn't do this yeah or so many people have regrets that I should have you know you have the popular post getting viral all over the place the five biggest regrets people have and they die I try to spend more time with my family I should have done this so that which is not about money or work is what the point is in those five biggest regrets but I feel uh imagine you're just in a complete state of spiritual consciousness when it is dropped there there's nothing else but just dropped it which is why the founder of iskcon


dropped it which is why the founder of iskcon Shula prabhupada when he was asked this question it's last moments so is there anything that's left for you said Gucci a couple of hours is gone completely finished with everything so when I look at this this gentleman my monk friend's father uh one thing is very evident and clear to me and I see that also as something that I always believed in and I've been speaking about it a lot of times which is a very seldom speak about death actually I speak more about life because a life lived well is dying well we I don't need to prepare separately to die well if I live very well it feeds into that spiritual State of Consciousness when I dropped it this gentleman whom I'm talking about he led his life like that I've known him I've known him very very closely and I've known what kind of an individual he was I've known his spiritual depth I've known the depth of his meditation


spiritual depth I've known the depth of his meditation and I wouldn't be surprised that this is how he left but it could have been in a in bed for 20 years of ants remaining the same state too it was just Anaya seamless for him so to me when I visualize my own death I really don't look at how I will die that visualization of death for me reminds me how I need to live today all right I'm not so concerned about what's beyond my control and outside of my hands I'm very much concerned about and focused on what is in my hands today how have I spent time with you have I spent time with myself have I spent time with God I will spend time with my japa my jaunting my meditation how much I spend time with my fellow friends and my mother monk however however I spend time dealing with every other person who comes me to say that video made this difference or that did this to me am I compassionate am I actually


did this to me am I compassionate am I actually genuinely listening or am I just okay how am I good thank you am I doing that you know that is my choice my day lived well there is very much in my hands so if I live like that if I were to die now I know that that will be fantastic and if I don't live well even if I were to die after a hundred years it won't be any different than any other death in full of pain but that's my visualization of death and when I look at my own death like that yeah um what would you like people to know about death you know the thing is this podcast has a little bit for sure not this episode the podcast in general yeah it's desensitized me about death really uh and I like that feeling you know that doesn't mean I don't have a heart I feel emotion yeah but uh when people are speaking about death you'll often see people's body language switch into a right you know they'll go back the


switch into a right you know they'll go back the full facial expression will change for me I keep listening and what what else you're gonna say after you're using this person passed away or yeah uh what should people know about death because everyone knows it's coming yeah what else what should they know about that don't worry what has to happen will happen do what you can do again the same thing that I said earlier do what you can do to live well today today lived well is a better tomorrow a better tomorrow if you're living and a better tomorrow if you die tomorrow doesn't matter live your life well that's my message about death rather than being paranoid rather than being too consumed by this whole thing it happens and when we see somebody leave when we see somebody we all go through those phases that's why but in an overall in a generic sense I think it's just so much better to just focus on life living well being there mindful conscious compassionate kind loving spiritual the


there mindful conscious compassionate kind loving spiritual the the sum total of all of that is a good death right that's what I would like people to know Live Well live with the right virtues live with the light right kind of Consciousness and awareness I'd also probably like to highlight that many of our listeners may even have a lead us possibly we don't know we don't know so many in the country have had early deaths yeah right we don't know it's something that none of us know something that none of us will ever know but since something that's something so beyond Us in terms of when it will happen and how it will happen that's precisely I'm just coming back to the same thing sorry again and again I would rather look at what I can do because it's so much Beyond me yeah yes out of curiosity to study a subject that's a different thing I'm studying but to be consumed by it I think I would rather be consumed by what I can do to live a beautiful life


by what I can do to live a beautiful life and then let it lead to a good death Lego not that I shouldn't die well I want to but living well will lead to that I believe foreign [Music] [Music] thank you sir thank you as we say on TRS happiness through curiosity absolutely thank you appreciate the happiness absolute pleasure being with you and thank you for having me thank you sir that was the episode for today at the time of recording this conclusion for this episode it's just been about three or four hours since this amazing conversation I had with God gopal Das Prabhu he always leaves you with a little bit of positivity a little bit of thought lots of inspiration and of course lots of spiritual wisdom so I also highly recommend you check out episodes that we've done with gauranga Das with amoglya Prabhu with all the other monks from different faiths as well because it's a big segment that we have on the ranvi show three years of podcasting this


on the ranvi show three years of podcasting this way has changed me immensely as a human being some of that change I've tried capturing in my meditation and yoga app level Superman I've linked it down below make sure you go download it make sure you go check it out for more episodes like this make sure you follow TRS on Spotify or Spotify exclusive every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world I'm ranveer this was gaur gopal that's Prabhu giving us another epic episode and I will see you very soon my friend [Music] thank you


even with us we don't make tools anymore so our hands and all are going to constantly change we are not eating the you know our diet is not the same we're eating cooked food softer food so our Jaws are gonna undergo changes uh so physically also we are gonna go and go change so of course uh change evolution is uh ongoing you know at this point I have to ask you about the Aryan Invasion Theory yeah one thing we all should know that it's no longer exist so why are you getting angry as in it's been disproved it's been long back long back iron Invasion because there's no archaeological proof for Invasion God so okay this is the final say by an archaeologist yeah there's no proof of invasion in the age where the internet teaches you more about history than your own history textbooks it's the podcast according to me that are leading the way and specifically in the world of history it's the archaeologists in the same way that scientists approach science what


in the same way that scientists approach science what I mean by that is they go about an evidence-based approach similarly archaeologists approach history from an evidence-based approach they go into their digging sites their archaeological sites from a very open perspective they open to any aspect of history as long as there's proof behind it this one's a history specific episode everything from the Indus Valley Civilization to the Aryan Invasion Theory to ancient Vedic culture we've even spoken about the Mahabharata the itihas or the real history of India this one's a packed episode I recommend that you watch it till the end especially if you enjoy history and remember for more episodes just like this make sure you follow TRS on Spotify but it's Spotify exclusive every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world this is an archeology special [Music] foreign [Music] wants archaeologists yeah and it's primarily because people have a love-hate relationship with history in our country and the hate


relationship with history in our country and the hate usually begins in school because they think that the history books are pretty boring and a lot of people believe that we taught wrong history we're taught unimportant history I don't know how you feel about that but most people are trying to learn history now through YouTube yeah so how do you feel yeah it's very important like you know somebody message me few days ago and they were like you know that uh like somebody who was in 40s 50s and she was like that in my age we didn't had any information at hand but today there is so much of information and it's really good to put good content and good information correct information out there so I'm really happy that people are now interested in archeology which was not a much talked about uh you know subject or profession and it's interesting to initiate conversations so that was really good you know we can converse with people now with much ease do you get asked about Ancient Aliens everywhere you go I


asked about Ancient Aliens everywhere you go I do I do especially after the latest you know Netflix documentary also a lot of people have this conflicting views but that's okay like people ask questions and it's good that we tell them what is right and what is wrong uh that is also needed so people ask about Ancient Aliens they ask about dinosaurs we don't dig dinosaurs beings and human related things so yeah people do ask such questions are you talking about that Graham Hancock documentary yeah okay yeah how do you feel about gram and as an archaeologist he's he's not an archaeologist in a way that he's not trained in archeology he has interest in passion towards this subject but he carries a very non-archaeologist perspective also and by non non-archaeologist perspective I mean as an archaeologist we know that our facts speak the truth I'll have to give some context to the listeners yeah so Grandma Hancock is a journalist journalist who has passion for archeology yeah he's uh


who has passion for archeology yeah he's uh been on The Joe Rogan Experience a lot and he's constantly about these ideas related to uh lost history in terms of he uh he highlights multiple different historical events one which being the younger rise period where meteors hit the earth and apparently older civilizations were lost and wiped out and uh very tiny amount of human beings were left after that that's the theory I'm not I'm not I'm not teaching it I'm just relaying it no no no no I get scared talking okay I'm kidding hello that's what he he is trying to suggest and with the latest documentary also he is suggesting a very alternative Theory see I am all for alternative Theory right because in archeology also we know that a lot of things are not conclusive they are tentative because still we find proper solid evidence we can't call you know something with conclusive you know uh you know it's not conclusive for us so I understand that people will have their alternative Theory but


I understand that people will have their alternative Theory but this Theory just goes beyond geological time scale and also evolutionary time scale I mean unfortunately I did try to watch uh the Netflix documentary but I could not within five minutes I think I just put it off I just could not because what it's promote is pseudo archeology and and it's a very important thing he's actually done as a favor because now archaeologist Community have started talking about the pseudo archaeologist uh which is ongoing on internet see you know there's pros and cons so when with YouTube and other mediums we have good content we also have very bad content but what makes it pseudo archeology pseudo archeology is somebody who is an archaeologist who pretends to be with just the thought of finding something which is lost but not following the the you know the practice the field practice of an archaeologist and I can't put these things in word because these are very you know which are part of training like it's a process when we are


part of training like it's a process when we are uncovering things um I can't put in writing it's something which is very intangible which is very emotional also for a lot of us we work uh with certain objectives and research questions in mind and we have a lot of things that goes on while we're just Excavating one trench or one side can you give an example so like for instance uh like recently when I was Excavating rakhi gari last year um I always make a point that I don't go with a set narrative like I go with with the uh you know archaeological background of the site uh when it was discovered whether it was excavated before or not but I will never go with a set narrative there has been a lot of work a lot of work that has come out of the blue great work done by archaeologists like a gosh HD sankalia Mishra uh even you know Professor Bibi Lal Paris bisht who have just you know they have gone with just


who have just you know they have gone with just the perspective of an archaeologist who've not gone to a site saying that we're going to excavate this and this is what I want to find no they have found a site they know the principles and methods of working you know in uh of archaeological work and investigation they have gone with that and they have bring out such important information that has now the foundation for us the young archaeologists to work on you know for example I just give a example of dholavira uh when uh JP Joshi an archaeologist he first discovered dholavira in Gujarat which is now a world heritage site but he saw uh the the mound and he saw stone structures on top some you know remains being exposed and all and he thought that it's it's basically a medieval fort okay and he did not excavate that instead he went in excavator which is in Kutch it's Alvin Gujarat it was then Iris Bish doctor's best he when


it was then Iris Bish doctor's best he when he got charged he was in ASI and he got charge of that region he went to dolavera again and he explored the region with his own perspective with his own intelligence and archaeological practice that he is training that he has obtained over the years and he excavated the site okay and that's that's one of the most important archaeological Harappan side which has given us rainwater harvesting evidences which has given us you know that they were reservoirs how people in Kutch which is not if it is a Barren sort of arid land people survived they are reservoys Rock Cut reservoirs cut around the settlement so that they know when there is surplus of water the rain water they will store it and with the rainwater harvesting and the tank system and you know interconnecting uh channels and big drainages they will recycle the water also and use it and because there is water scarcity so if he had gone with the narrative or


so if he had gone with the narrative or with the thoughts or he had gone with what you know Dr JP Joshi thought earlier he would have not got excavated okay um do you think that India started getting civilized with the Indus Valley Civilization and the second question is is it only as old as 3000 BC or do you think it it was old like what does the evidence say about that uh yeah so the word civilization what does it mean first of all archaeologically there are there are two terms civilization and culture right both terms we archaeologists use a very quite often in our literature in our work now civilization is a concept where you find things that uh you know make people or suggests that the lifestyle of people was sort of organized or uniform over a large area so over a large area if there is some sort of uniformity organization skills like organization in terms of administration yeah and also drainage sanitation uh town planning all of that certain parameters if it sort of you know has


that certain parameters if it sort of you know has then it is a civilization but within civilization there are cultures now what are cultures in archeology you know we keep using this term culture very quite often all the time as here people talk about culture but archaeologically what do we mean bad about culture for us in simple terms culture is nothing but learned behavior something that we learn and over the period of time given the landscape the geomorphology ecology resources Etc everything the behavior that we learn and the tradition we develop over the period of time that is culture and for us we focus on material culture right so within a civilization there is culture also so of course the civilization it is a very uh you know uh like old world if I look at the old world the ancient world there are contemporary civilizations like Mesopotamia Egypt civilization Harappan civilization or Indus Valley Civilization is contemporary to them okay it happened at the same time it happened at the same time right but now looking at


at the same time right but now looking at the history Indian subcontinent because India is today a political boundary that you know we know but back then that boundary didn't exists um so if you look at the subcontinent uh the history it goes very well into the prehistory so we have stone tools that are dated to 1.5 million years these are prehistoric stone tools 1.5 million years okay and you see uh Homo sapiens evolving and migrating Out of Africa coming here which which is roughly like when 70 50 000 years ago 70 000 because 1.5 million years tone tool is attested to a homo erectus our predecessor species not us our species evolve this is one of the theories our species evolved in Africa migrated to India about 70 to 50 000 years ago what's the story story of India like if you can just draw out a picture of the subcontinent you said 1.5 million years ago we believe that there are there is there were stone tools yeah which might mean that homo erectus


stone tools yeah which might mean that homo erectus existed okay not might no but uh scientifically dated okay it might mean Homo erectus or some or maybe right now we know because of the tech uh the stone tool technology and doing a typological analysis but yes it is always another possibility but that is uh uh it correlates with the time period of homo erectus 1.5 million and then uh we have Homo sapiens that is our species coming in the scene I just just want to add one small cool historical factor I learned recently someone I think this was on Joe Rogan where they uh showed orangutans using stone tools but maybe they've reached their point the evolution whether they've now discovered how to use tools and they'll eventually evolve into some sort of yeah because evolution is ongoing yeah you even with those animals even with us even with us even with us uh we don't uh make tools anymore so our hands and all are going to constantly change we are not eating the


are going to constantly change we are not eating the you know our diet is not the same we're eating cooked food softer food so our Jaws are gonna undergo changes uh so physically also we are gonna go undergo change so of course uh change evolution is uh ongoing all men are gonna become bald eventually because balding is we never know what our next species is going to be but we might not able to see it or um you know uh imagine it as of now but uh painting the picture of India yeah so um with the prehistoric Evolution um we then we have uh Homo sapiens that is our species coming on board and then their culture sort of evolves the stone tool technology that sort of get you know is evolved um and then the progression happens and then uh uh Holocene begins and Holocene is a time when the ice starts to melt so that's the end of ice age 10 000 BCE okay uh so that's when the eye starts to melt the


so that's when the eye starts to melt the ice age has ended uh you have Rivers uh you know Lakes being formed fish becomes part of the diet was there a lot of ice in India like even say in Mumbai um not a lot of it but of course the eyes uh age the cold weather did affect environmental thing so it could have been snowing in Mumbai not in Mumbai but per se but uh see about 30 40 um you know thousand years ago if I look at it uh the rivers that we see today which basically have helped the cultures to evolve were not existing they started to exist only when the ice in the north starts to melt you know the ice that the glacier starts to melt because the temperatures become a little warmer wow you know so that has happened so this whole thing about Saraswati Going Underground and all uh was there like a difference much later so there was a whole different river system only back then was of course a very elaborate


only back then was of course a very elaborate reverse versus Sonic uh shift uh um the market divide in the Himalayas that the what the glacier that would feed the river was blocked so that's the reason why the river became more of a seasonal River that is whenever there is a you know High rainfall there would be water uh and that is the reason why slowly said steadily in the southern part of the Saraswati river system that is the gagar hakra area which is the Rajasthan or Northwest West Rajasthan uh to a Sindh that part starts to disappear and the reason is because see if there is no water running in the river rivers are usually deep you know and water carries a lot of silt so if there is no water running back give the force and if there is any rain water it will only come with the force to a certain point Downstream to a certain point it will not go on you know all across its uh don't go into the ocean it


across its uh don't go into the ocean it won't go into the ocean you need supporting tributaries to help the water in the channel so what happens is the aridity due to aridity also about in 2000 BCE the part of started to become very silty because of the sand dunes also where is this uh this is uh north of bikaner okay if you look at the map of India and if you zoom in to uh SRI ganganagar District you will see a green sort of patch which resembles a River Course going towards synth uh you know the Pakistan border and suddenly disappears so that is the last part of the Saraswati system which we call it okay so when the siltation is happening of course the river is no longer very deep it's becomes shallow so even if there is a rainfall you know every 10 20 years massive flooding is happening the water will not retain it will flood over you know in the neighboring area so that is one of


in the neighboring area so that is one of the reasons why it happened and also because thar is it's in the desert area the Sand Dune starts to move so because the sand dunes a river bed sort of getsilted and becomes more and more shallow with period of time uh so these are the reasons why Saraswati disappeared and we know that about 2000 BCE which is about 4 000 years ago this phenomenon started to happen we have evidence for it it started going underground it's not disappearing okay it starts to disappear because there was no Supply what a supply there could have been other river systems like Saraswati alsoj was there yamuna was there ganga was in existence so also because of the tectonic movement the yamana shifted more closer to uh ganga okay around the same period of time so if you see the changes that happened with the yamuna slowly slowly it has started going towards the ganga now if you look at the map uh the


ganga now if you look at the map uh the the there is ganga then yamuna and there's not much gap between them so initially the Gap was much more white so earthquakes happen all the time there are tectonics tectonic shifts that happen all the time so basically some earthquake has happened in the Himalayas somewhere and because of that a river gets entirely dried out or reduces over time yeah and then civilizations have to shift inward outward difference there yeah so not only the whole civilization was not affected by that okay only the Harappan sites on the gagarakra okay usually cities and towns come up near river systems because it's because and even the Gujarat the Harappan sites thrived even after that they just they started to disintegrate you know after 1900 till 1500 BCE whereas in uh the the work that we have done personally because that's my part of my doctoral research we know that about 2000 you start seeing the sides Harappan sites are


you start seeing the sides Harappan sites are you know being deserted okay okay okay I'm gonna draw out this picture again yeah 1.5 million years ago we find stone tools in India uh in about between 50 000 BC and 70 000 BC in that period 1000 years ago yeah we almost happens Homo sapiens are migrating into India um you'll have to paint the picture from 50 000 BC onwards yeah this is an archaeologist's perspective with evidence so after that as I said about 10 000 BCE the Holocene set in and then the rivers were formed and then fish become part of the diet uh it led to rise of agriculture so the people who were uh hunter-gatherers uh they decided to uh you know opt for sedentary lifestyle so agriculture started the earliest evidence of Agriculture comes from mahergar which is now in Pakistan but it's part of the Indian subcontinent the evidence uh is that about 7500 BCE uh or six you know 7000 BCE the agriculture


or six you know 7000 BCE the agriculture practices started as another site this evidence is older than any evidence we found in up or Bihar or Northeast India um see up May and up also there is a site called Aura Deva where there is evidence of you know about 5000 BCE the agriculture but the merger is the oldest and most stratified archaeological it's like a it's like you have index sites which has you can see the evolution you know from early farming all the way to Harappan and this early farming has termed as holy Farm because the tools were more primitive also because they started now farming uh they started uh including cereal and other grains into the diet besides hunting and you know uh the game besides the animals they've started including uh cereals and the things that they will produce you know they cultivate so all that was included so of course in the world view the earliest evidence of Agriculture comes from Central Asia Turkey it comes from there there


comes from Central Asia Turkey it comes from there there is no other side so far which precedes turkeys evidence which is very early about 9000 BCE no other site uh proceeds so there is also Theory suggests that the farming practices the practice migrated from uh along with people perhaps from that area to different Paths of Europe and also the sub continent and 7000 B 500 BCE when Maher guard um you know the evidence comes but I also want to say this here that these are the evidence that we have right now tomorrow if we excavate a site which gives us much earlier evidence it's much more possible so this is what I'm talking is what we know as of now yeah okay you also need to understand that with archeology there's also a lot of possibilities which are still buried we don't know yet so uh the agriculture early farming life sort of starts and with the sedentricism you have small small settlements coming up well I again one last thing I want to mention here


I again one last thing I want to mention here because I know what a lot of audience members are thinking uh We've even had a busy chavra on the show and he had put out a theory saying that uh during the Ice Age because there is subtropical region a lot of human beings settled in India because more conducive to human life and then possibly migrated outwards from India okay that is of course there because you see where India is placed very strategically it is placed it connects the East also and it connects the West it's a connecting landscape right if you look at the migratory track and also you have to cross sort of Southeast Asia South Asia to go towards connecting the Australian uh landscape continent also so you just see India's Place very strategically and that's the reason why we are you know we tried as Traders we still did even Indian Ocean trade thrived right because of the placing of the subcontinent and from Africa if you look at the map you have Central Asia then coming to


at the map you have Central Asia then coming to India and then probably coming to the southeast so that is of already been established uh on the basis of dates also I think a lot of listeners who don't have an archaeologist's perspective have a very romantic outlook on India thinking that no we were the oldest civilization you're one of the older civilization no doubt no doubt I think there's also a lot of like I was going to say goodness there's a lot of like anger towards uh britishers for writing our textbooks in a certain way so right now that's where the internet is like they're pissed off uh that things like the Aryan Invasion Theory things like uh the Indus Valley Civilization or that out there they're saying that uh history has started from the but they they fail to listen to the archaeologist's perspective where you guys back it by evidence so as I said with anikaman I feel like you guys have the biggest right in terms of you'll


guys have the biggest right in terms of you'll have the right to speak the truth because this is your job like you know you're not trying to go about history from a place of science as well not just Theory and not just romance see yeah uh it's true there is a lot of Romanticism that happens but that we can't do that in the field when we're Excavating yeah um you know artifacts and Excavating features we can't romanticize history then we can do it on the table like it feels very nice to hear those things yeah you know because even your your Indian your you love your country like it's not that you don't want to believe that we were the greatest one of the oldest and we're on the biggest uh industrial civilization is the biggest civilization you see the the spread you know they were geniuses wait I'll I'll let you come back after you explain what happened after Holocene yeah so after early farming I'm shut up now I'll just take


farming I'm shut up now I'll just take one left the only farming we have cereals being introduced the society then undergoes change so when you are no longer predominantly focused on uh surviving on hunting and now you can sit and you can produce and a part of it of course hunting so when I say early farming I don't mean that the hunting has disappeared so you have early farming along with the Hunting Community going parallel also okay in fact with Indus you have Neolithic which is you know early farming so although Indus is a urban center but then you have a farming communities also continuously growing so there is no uh like there's no block which is on top of the other there are different you know the branches of tree that sort of going around in the subcontinent so you have different cultures you have civilization but you have the farming Community you have indigenous cultures also you have contemporary cultures also uh so with the early farming the perspective changed now you


with the early farming the perspective changed now you can sit and you have to do in work in the field you don't have to go into the wild and hunt and you know wonder if you won't find anything what will you eat now you can produce with that there was of course you know the social structure must have also undergone change what was happening in South India at this point uh Southern India also we find evidence but not that early so far is that digging happening in Southern India now yeah digging is going ongoing okay uh so of course there is parallel evidence to Indus Valley also yeah because when I was growing up in school they never they never teach you all this yeah it's like you know and I keep talking about this and in my work also I'm trying to sort of promote this that people think that there was harappans and the entire canvas of the subcontinent was black yeah because this is literally what's taught in history that's not true it precedes the Aryan


in history that's not true it precedes the Aryan versus dravidian Theory which which is used even today in Tamil Nadu as a divide and Rule policy by political parties yeah I'm aware of it they'll say that no you guys are the videos and you guys are from the RN race that's why one you'll need to hate North India and even amongst each other uh there has to be rivalries this is a Tamil YouTuber told me I didn't know that this Aryan versus the original thing is still there today but it comes from British times that's why they told us that okay the Indus Valley Civilization was populated yeah and they see the the downside to this is that in Southern India people have started to have want ancestry forced and chestri to be harappans because they think that they want to prove desperately that harappans migrated all the way to South and that led to uh the culture there and then they are The Descendants direct descendants to the harappans but it


Descendants direct descendants to the harappans but it doesn't work like that because you see when you're migrating you are crossing a lot of a huge chunk of a landscape and you don't have trains and flights then you have to either Cross by foot or by river or you know I have to use a primitive mode of transportation to do so and in that you will be meeting indigenous culture changing also change happens we are our generation is a very good example of change we are born somewhere we might studied somewhere working somewhere will settle somewhere else and our children will then will be born in a different place to what we were born you know where we were born so it's it's much evident that the you know where I was born my child will have a different cultural perspective to you know what I had they might not carry on a lot of Punjabi uh you know perception in a Punjabi mess uh in them they might have different thing because that's what culture demands so you


different thing because that's what culture demands so you change we always change so once you have a sedentary life once you are farming your social economic and also your you know it becomes a little more complex you might have we see a lot of small small settlements coming up and these small small settlements uh sort of gave rise to the civilization or Urban face or the urbanization of which the harappans are very well known of we see this in evidence that there there's earlier upon which are farming priharapans also which are early farming and then you know slowly slowly towards mature become these you know very complex unified very uh you know they Master the craft of trading you know that happens Master the crowd of trading with Western civilizations right so we know that now that there is slowly Evolution that has happened and then because bronze AIDS civilization uh across the globe sort of disintegrating started to sort of you know uh there was a decline into the civilization


know uh there was a decline into the civilization you'll have to explain what Bronze Age civilization means okay so bronze ages when see there is stone tools so archaeological cultures are also termed after stone tools right and then metal comes in so when the metal comes in we start using that defining that particular time period as per the metal so childcareth is a time period where copper is introduced okay okay and then the bronze is where copper alloy is made where tin is added to Copper to create bronze so harappans mastered that metallurgy to add tin in the copper and create bronze artifact so they therefore they are the bronze uh eighth civilization and contemporary World there were other bronze civilization of costs you know other old world civilizations I have to do this to you because again it's a theme of the show uh so without breaking a floor I'd love to know from you what you feel about the Mahabharata because you've written I'm writing you're writing a book on it


written I'm writing you're writing a book on it uh I'm not going to ask you whether you believe it happened or not I'm going to ask you an archaeological perspective but I'm also going to say that I've asked a lot of people on the show this and a lot of people kind of single out roughly 3000 BCE as the time a lot of people choose to believe it happened now 3000 BCE according to the timeline you've given is roughly when the Bronze Age civilization the urban phase starts the urban phase of Harappan civilization starts by 2000 3000 to 2600 BC okay yeah so it's a very important question and I'm adding that in my book as well so thank you for pointing it out because that's what people think you know when suddenly somebody gives a date to the Epic about 3000 BCE now since I've discussed about archeology very briefly with you now you have got this question right that if 3000 BCE or third millennium BCE is the


3000 BCE or third millennium BCE is the urban phase of Harappan how will now can I put Mahabharata into that context right so this these are the questions which we archaeologists uh uh we were run from that perspective we all discuss not openly it's sort of an Hush Hush thing why I don't know why I mean I see when I started working uh you know in the field my work basically revolves around painted grayware which uh is linked to the Mahabharata spirit it in time and space not the Epic but the period of Mahabharata in time and space that particular Joe there is an area of mahabharatnam area so that particular Pottery is very predominant in that particular area and you find that with iron okay so post after Harappan that culture emerges in in the subcontinent so the theory about Professor Lal was that this particular the people who are using this pottery and using the iron are the ones uh you know uh the this time period is what


uh you know uh the this time period is what sinks with the Epic narration of the Mahabharat in time that is the period of PGW and in space because of the spread so he undertook uh an exploration on the basis of the description of the Epic uh the errors that are mentioned in the Epic especially the Kuru uh the predominant the hastana poor area all the way till you know the purana yamuna or the entire he has explored on the basis of the outline the rough outline that you get from the Mahabharat of the guru panchal his work is an ironclad theory that nobody is able to disprove even after you know seven decades okay or or work on it again nobody can you expand the theory yeah so what he has said that as I've explained that painted gray awareness spread and its time period so he said that the sides like hastina put because he excavated uh sites like hastinapur he also explained to purana killer he excavated


he also explained to purana killer he excavated many sites that find resonance to the Epic Mahabharata because the Mahabharata is an interesting epic a lot of these cities and towns that are mentioned in the Mahabharata they carry the same name even today like asthina poor has you know named still called mathura kurukshetra is still called kurukshetra so he undertook Explorations and excavations at these various archaeological sites and he came to the conclusion that that painted grayware this particular gray Pottery which is basically uh starts the Iron Age in the subcontinent uh was found EV on all these sites okay at the lower most strata they didn't find nuclear weapons they didn't they didn't find brahmastras ah sadly no um I'd I'd love to know what else it was found in this uh Diamond space because for every young Indian kid you'd love to feel like bows and arrows were found in gurukshetra swords or found in kurukshetra after the epic battle


or found in kurukshetra after the epic battle took place so I mean it's a very raw question to an archaeologist and I know that with history you often we don't even know what we don't know because so much gets lost and all of history all over the world is fragmented So Stories stay because grandmoms love telling their grandchildren stories yeah that's how is that I I feel like it's like an inheritance I feel that must have definitely been some Epic War I a lot of work of fiction also you know if you read any fiction book even today you pick up anything that in the author will always play something on on uh on something which happened or attack or will choose a time period right it happens even the fiction world the writing works like that you pick up a time period you base your story in that set of era and then you know you correct the facts of that particular era and then you create the story so for those those who don't think and I'm talking about


those those who don't think and I'm talking about the both sides of the prism those who don't think the Epic is the truth reality uh they should also know that even the work of fiction is uh is based on the reality they must I mean for them I'll draw the picture that they could have been a civil war between a family it would be good yes yes exactly exactly exactly we don't know because it's all intangible on the other side of the prism who takes Mahabharata as as the true identity as an Article of Faith as you know is an article of the there you know it's in it's the and they take you to its ancestry a question if anybody questions mahabharata's existence it's like questioning their ancestry they should know also that when archaeologists dig we dig people we don't dig Gods we don't dig the Divine beings we don't dig the heroes we dig people you know so our job is not to validate the beliefs of the people or disapproves


to validate the beliefs of the people or disapproves the belief of the people that is not a job no sane archaeologist will ever do that our job is basically to tell you what people were like how they lived even if it's the time period of the Mahabharata you know you would want to know how the houses were like if PGW is in time and space sing to the Mahabharata you would also want to know right what were the eating habits how did they live uh besides uh beyond all of these ill you know elaboration exaggerations and these you know this beautiful embroidery that you have this poetic narration which is which is uh you know it's it's just one of it's class apart the Epic so you would also want to know that's what we do our job is not to validate any anyone's belief or anyone's thing on either side on either side like you know but our job is to to the facts and that's what Professor Lyle also did of course he


that's what Professor Lyle also did of course he got into a lot of controversy over the years because uh the the tussle between the right and the left kept on going but as an archaeologist when I look at his work in 1945 50s that he has done uh I know that he based his things on facts and you know if I read his work old work we says if you think tomorrow that I am wrong and maybe not PGW but an early culture is linked to Mahabharata or a later cultures linked to mahabad Painted grayware that Iron Age 11 1000 1100 BC is not the time of Mahabharata whether it's early or later you can do it but you'll have to fulfill these parameters that I have fulfilled because what I have done is I have done a geographical exploration and I have tried to link the mahabhara to the archeology okay you know so so far no work has been done um nobody even initiated a conversation uh to and fro um and and his


a conversation uh to and fro um and and his theory still stands I'll tell you this is what is part of my book right I was Excavating bernava which was mentioned in the Mahabharata as varnavat bharnava was one of the sites explored by Professor Lal who I was talking about you know with the who was the one who came up with this Theory so he what was it in Mahabharata so there was this episode in the Mahabharata where the panda was uh with kunti they go to varnavat uh to perform uh rituals okay okay so it is on the bank of river hinden uh between yamuna and ganga so that area is a river called hinden it's on that bank and uh uh this there basically is a Confluence of Two Rivers one Krishna hinden in that landscape so they go there to uh varnavas to perform rituals and you know uh and the korovas have sort of conspired to murder them so they commissioned an architect to build a


them so they commissioned an architect to build a palace of luck about this particular plan and he says that you know you should ask somebody to build a tunnel to dig up a tunnel so that you escape but you leave you know uh for five people there six people there and then the car was will start rejoicing that in a pandavasa finally dead but what happens if they go to Virat nagara and they live in Disguise for a year you know so this whole con to the The Narrative is from the Mahabharata so this particular site was said to be the spot for the laksha gray where the tunnel was uh built uh but uh was dug so but when we were Excavating I remember when we uh the news of our excavation reached the you know the journalists and the people you won't believe that very first day they were about oh hundreds and hundreds of journalists we had to literally call security and we had to really be very careful because there was


we had to really be very careful because there was so many so many because that particular thing stored up emotion in people and people want to know what are we doing and when I started Excavating they would be journalists coming every day people in large number coming to the site uh wanting to see what we are digging they constantly expected us that we will find that that tunnel that laksha gray Tunnel right that's what they've thought even the gurus uh you know in the region the religious um figures they would come and they would you know say when asked me what did you find and uh they will not ask me of course because I'm a girl they will ask other people what has been found but then they will tell them you know this is what we have found you know um you know mud structures and pottery and all of that they will not be interested in in that because what they want to find is in all glorified details that are mentioned in the Mahabharata but that's not what we


in the Mahabharata but that's not what we find in archeology you know at this point I have to ask you about the Aryan Invasion Theory yeah which is a very controversial topic on the internet because people feel very strongly about because there is a lot of colonial anger yeah I feel most of India really hates the British yeah um it's true because it's Colonial uh but one thing we all should know that it's no longer exist so why are you getting angry as in it's been disproved it's been disproved long long back long back iron Invasion because there's no archaeological proof for Invasion God so okay this is the final say by an archaeologist yeah there's no proof of invasion and on what basis were britishers telling us see what they said I tell you so let's just go back fuse or a couple of decades right when people started digging up places and started finding evidence to other people who actually initially initiated this were the British officers right of course later on


this were the British officers right of course later on uh they trained Indian archaeologists and you know I'm sitting because of that training that has happened uh back in you know 1940s 30s 20s that has happened uh but what what they were trying to do is they were trying to uh fill in the gaps what they thought that the written text is what you know the date that is given as per the Sanskrit literature is is where and also Alexander's invasion is where the history of India begins that was the initial perspective right that was before the excavation of harappa people thought that it the country's uh the history starts with the invasion of Alexander and then comes the Ashokan Empire what did you think was before Alexander nothing we were all barbaric so an Invader has to to come and to teach us the way of life okay because that is what they were doing no they were trying to project that to me the British Empire or the colonial officers were trying to say that


or the colonial officers were trying to say that only that they are civilized and we are barbarics right that is what Churchill has said that Indians missed the busts of civilization right as his famous quote that he has given a very publicly but what he didn't know that we had the oldest civilization which was uncovered by the very British official officers themselves and the Indian archaeologists who were leading the excavations uh at harappa and then at Mohamed so before that before the harappa's excavation which was which began on 15th of 5th of January 1921 uh that excavation changed the game because now uh the Antiquity or the chronology of Indian history was pushed back to uh 2003 third millennium easy was now pushed back from Alexander's Invasion supposed Invasion it uh it went back to you know uh the earlier civilization which now put us on the map with the civilizations of uh Egypt and Mesopotamia right so it this happened about a hundred years ago uh


it this happened about a hundred years ago uh in 1921 29 24 24 September is when John Marshall uh publicly announces that India has found its missing civilization which puts India at a map uh of the old world civilizations right and henceforth we have excavated hundreds of sites and we now know it's one of the biggest civilizations in the old of the old world right so the perspective was how how did it change right where people first thought that the the Indians their history starts only with Alexander now suddenly after harappa's excavation the history was pushed back to third millennium BC e right before that they were hunter gatherers that was known Hunter Gardens were known they were worried they were bothered about when the Civilized history starts yeah which is not hunter-gathering history which is more into you know big structures this that and all of that thing so now they know the Civilized history starts about you know third millennium BCE and then slowly steadily this excavation work started happening


slowly steadily this excavation work started happening and more Harappan sites came uh uh into the picture and the evidence came to the picture but then what happened was uh we found out archives found out that about 1500 BCE this civilization dies down okay so from 1500 to the next culture which was a painted grayware culture which was 1100 1000 BCE between this time period 400 years what happened 500 years 4 500 years what happened how come a civilization which was so skilled and you know so Advanced and was so rich culturally socially and all of that dies down due to XYZ reasons and the next culture is coming up at 1100 BCE so to fill that Gap comes in the picture of invasion because the text says that the invasion or you know Aarons were the ones who let the second you know urbanization and they are the ones who immersed the culture so there people started playing the Gap in the archaeological data and started filling in that harappans did not disappear


started filling in that harappans did not disappear due to environmental crisis or any other crisis but an invasion happened that killed people and then they the Invaders were the ones who came settled and they are responsible for this the next urban urban because that Urban uh the second urbanization was much more advanced which was this you know rise of Maga than all these republics so they're like you know see earlier they were just you know Town planners and all these people were pushed down or you know Invaders came so they ran down to South and then there was a blank so the Aryans were the one responsible for the cultures emergencies we're using North Indians are descendants of Europeans and South Africans yes they they are the Harappan descendants so this is where the iron Invasion Theory came to play because there was a gap in not history but archaeological culture so what have how did that Gap get filled Gap got filled because we know that no Harappan sides were raided by


know that no Harappan sides were raided by uh Invaders because there's no evidence yes there's no weapons there is no Mark of any Invasion and there are marks of invasions in archeology yeah we can find okay see because when we are Excavating we're not idiots you know people think that you know um like we can't understand something and it's not there but archaeologist's job is to pick these small small evidence and to test them we can very well understand if there is an invasion happened or not right we can very well understand if there was a war or not we can very well understand that there was earthquakes that destroyed a city or a fire that destroyed a city we work in with such principles and methodologies backing us that we can very well identify these things um so again what what's your conclusive thing about what happened in that 400 year period people just migrate slowly when we know when this Theory came up and then the with archeology developed


Theory came up and then the with archeology developed besides being excavated the data started filling in So eventually when the data was filled in people realize that there is no Invasion it's just one Theory that was put forward put forth and now if you test it it does not stand a chance so there was no Aryans who invaded the subcontinent so therefore that theory got this uh like discontinued this were disregarded long back but what replaced that theory was a migration Theory the Aryan migration Theory so since there was no weapon there was no other sign of war or any invasion people who propounded The Invasion Theory initially changed his stance and said look okay fine there was no Invasion right and we understand there's no weapon there is nothing but what is there there is a new culture coming so invasionally but migration happened so at a particular period a migration has happened and they are the ones who are responsible for the emergence of culture which is the second urbanization and so forth


of culture which is the second urbanization and so forth right but my stance personally if you talk about if I talk about my particular opinion um people are migrating all the time harappans migrated they went all the way to Mesopotamia Egypt and settled the community uh you know settlements also over there because they were trading you know they migrated people from other places must have migrated marital alliances work-wise Etc so migration is an ongoing process we ourselves are the species of migration you know because our own species migrated Out of Africa so you cannot deny that there was no migration what I don't like or approve of defining or putting in this time bracket that in this particular time bracket people have migrated and because there was nobody on the landscape they migrated and they changed the indigenous culture and Indigenous people adopted that particular culture and they let go of their own culture and that adopted culture sort of led to the better civilization better civilization it's a way of saying white people


better civilization it's a way of saying white people were needed to make a civilization less barbarican yeah and in this you don't find any uh conclusive archaeological proof either right so for me I've at times feel that's very it's a constructed identity so the whole theory that the North Indian especially uh there's a Central Asian migration that happened and they are because Central Asians are the ones who who are the ones who the rigvedic people they migrated and they gave us the rigveda but then the question that I ask is they gave us the Rigby then they forgot rigveda themselves right there must have been summary continuity there also yeah they have forget you don't forget the thing these things if we are still following a lot of Vedic Traditions you know if fun has to go with this theory if you adopted this still you know the one the one thing I'm trying to actually learn more through the podcast is the parallels between Indian culture ancient Indian culture by which I mean Vedic


culture ancient Indian culture by which I mean Vedic culture and ancient zoroastrian culture because there are some similarities and it's very interesting it's like uh basically in our stories asuras are the villains and Devas are the heroes and in their stories ahuras are the heroes and Divya is the villain yeah what does that mean yeah so it could have just been two warring tribes which painted the other tribe as the villain see you have to also understand that the world was not living in isolation like the way we think yeah that it wasn't just cities which of our region they knew about each other they knew of course they knew you look at Harappan sides they're spread all across Gulf also yeah macran because they are taking the ship all the way to Egypt and Mesopotamia also with motion razakhan we did an episode about the history of religion where he spoke about how even Islam is influence from religions that existed before Islam like when we speak about


that existed before Islam like when we speak about Sufism it was inspired by practices that were there before Sufism actually became a thing any world religion or philosophies inspired from something that came before so for all you know even the zoracianism and Vedic thing came from some other source belief from way before for which maybe we've even lost archaeological evidence yeah we might not have found archaeological evidence but if we did not find Direct archaeological evidence we will find indirect confidence right so one needs to keep uh looking at it and not push narrative okay that's what I would say because the other side of it the one side is the over the people who are pushing this Narrative of migration because they say the people who push The Narrative of migration they say there's not just one migration there are waves of migration that happen but on the other side is they say that from here to there migrated and we are the ones who are responsible for their culture now both sides are


are responsible for their culture now both sides are extreme we need to understand in history and Archeology there are Shades of Gray nothing is ever black and white yeah you need to take your emotions out of subject if you actually want to understand the subject 100 100 otherwise you can't uh do justice Indian audience that we figured from the podcast is that they're getting smart very fast okay but I feel if Indian audiences want to expand even more they need to take emotions religion spirituality out of a conversation when trying to understand these subjects yeah and be open to the exact polar opposite View at least hear it out and then come to a gray conclusion yeah I think the internet is going there but slowly like even even some of the things you've said on the show are going to get like backlash it's just always emotion yeah it's just how the internet works but maybe in the 2030s will be in a more uh evolved State of Mind to be able to accept truths that even trouble


to be able to accept truths that even trouble us yeah I know I'm gonna get emails I'm going to get DMS because I do that like that happens with me uh of course but see if I find fact I will be happy to change my stance that would that's what I've learned from you know my senior uh archaeologists also that if if uh you know some evidence come to light at a later stage accept it and then start working on the change also uh I have I don't want to ever push a narrative and here also I'm not pushing any narrative which is what I'm saying is is is we have not found many conclusive answers that people are dying to hear the the reason I'm not asking you to continue that timeline is because everything you said till this point kind of makes you understand what happened after that thousand BCE yeah we all know because a lot of it is written yeah yeah you have a Buddha uh the rise of Buddhism with


a Buddha uh the rise of Buddhism with Gotham Buddha coming in the picture and then you have Maga the Empire the republics you know coming up and I after that everything is quite sort of documented and we find evidence for it but pre that is where where you know uh finding evidence becomes very important well this was a great episode uh the one thing I've learned through the podcast a monk told me this he said that God is also a creature that's still evolving yeah and the one thing I understood is that archaeologists are also professionals who are constantly like learning and absorbing new things yeah uh I think gone are the days where an archaeologist can say no this is what the truth is yeah I think everyone is just understood that even history is great and we're still trying to find more yeah but you guys need to always speak from a perspective of evidence yeah which is why these are the most important history podcasts yeah while the other ones might be


important history podcasts yeah while the other ones might be more masalidar these are the real ones yeah it's true we need to you know keep evolving our own perspective also and it's important to do that otherwise you've become sort of you know I don't feel like working then there's nothing to work towards then if you have already established a theory yeah so which is why unemotionalize yourself yeah it's very important all right I second that thank you thank you so much for having me looking forward to speaking to you again and learning from you history thank you thank you that was the episode for today I love history as much as you do and that's why I look forward to my conversations with archaeologists with historians I want you guys to send us guest recommendations in this domain which are the historians archaeologists would you like to see on the show tell me what you thought of this episode as well we build the podcast further based on your feedback so tell us in the comment section what you thought


so tell us in the comment section what you thought of this how I can improve my own skill as a podcaster I'm always open to your feedback this was a super fun and enlightening conversation for me and for more conversations like this make sure you follow us on Spotify every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world history is going to be back archeology is going to be back TRS is going to be back very soon send us all that feedback and thank you so much for listening in [Music] all right


I didn't know that people could fail at friendships honestly it's a very New Concept because I'm assuming everyone has those two or three people at least you'll be surprised they don't wow they actually don't so the struggle is very real in all aspects whether it's friendship romance just at home in a professional space you need to understand where the friction is and why is it continuously happening with you uh everyone needs to find a balance between being there for other people being there for yourself as well because what we are taught is that you need to give give all right you need to be kind excessive things of even good things you will burn out you will be unhappy it's okay to be a little selfish on the other hand that if you are like extremely selfish and extremely into yourself then you need to be pulled out a bit to sort of find that middle ground of you need to be invested in other people as well so the journey is very different for happiness for a


the journey is very different for happiness for a lot of people but understand the essence of anything excessive is a bad thing this is a podcast that's going to make you understand your own mind and more importantly it's going to make you understand the software or the psychology of your own mind it's our first psychology special with one of the most reputed psychologists in Mumbai Hawaii she's spoken about happiness primarily in this episode we've also touched upon mental health we've spoken about therapy from a therapist perspective I strongly recommend that you watch this podcast till the end because the truth about life is that life is never going to be smooth you're always going to face some kind of difficulty in your life uh this isn't an out and out self-improvement episode like how TRS used to be it's a conversation it's free-flowing it's also very deep it also will lead into our sequel episode which is a love sex and BDSM special we've spoken about some very deep maybe controversial subjects


we've spoken about some very deep maybe controversial subjects in these two episodes she's one of my favorite guests that we've had in recent times and you guys will see why she is going to become a TRS All-Star for more episodes like this make sure you follow us on Spotify every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world because we're a Spotify exclusive now my meditation app level super mind is now live in my own mental health journey and in my own mental health battles I've constantly used meditation as a tool you have to combine it with therapy in the long term according to me but meditation as an anchoring practice will create Magic in your life it will help strengthen your mind that's all I'll say we've touched upon meditation in this one as well but this particular episode is much more about psychology so sit back relax take some notes and get ready to dive into your own mind through this very impactful conversation on happiness [Music] we're


this very impactful conversation on happiness [Music] we're talking about happiness and joy today we're talking about mental health and this is our first Psychology 101 episode as well but in your mind and your eyes Psychology 101 and happiness are not exactly the same topic that's not what it is for the rest of the world because I think the rest of the world has gotten to know about mental health psychologists and psychology because of this aspect called Happiness so where do we even begin welcome Vortex it's a Vortex you choose which Vortex you want to go down into okay all right uh if I were a five-year-old how would you explain the subject of psychology to me I think more than explaining the psychology the subject psychology to you I would make you focus on how are you feeling I would make you focus on your inner narrative essentially that's what I would do with you and that's how you learn like different people learn differently you know narrative yes every human being has their own inner


narrative yes every human being has their own inner voice that's telling them listen this is what life is for you listen this is what life is for you yeah of course so you everyone essentially has what we call a live script and unconsciously we sort of are fulfilling whatever the script is we've not really chosen it but when we stumble upon it we get to sort of work on it and execute it right so for a five-year-old or let's say even um lesser than 10 I would help them focus on their inner narrative in their inner World in their voice help them realize right from wrong what is acceptable what is not acceptable being able to speak what is inside you is very important I just need to break you a little bit here um okay I'm an engineer and colleges or taught me to view life quantitatively and in boxes and that's what I've always tried to do and then my career as an artist teaches me to break those boxes and kind of think in free space yes


those boxes and kind of think in free space yes so I'm gonna put both mine actors in front of you I've had Dr Sid Warrior on the show who's a neurologist he said that Neuroscience is like the hardware of the brain and psychology is like the software of the brain yes that's a perfect narrative okay so when we're talking about neuron neural Pathways hacking your mind all that is a part of the hardware but psychology and the inner narrative is about the using software it's what you put into your mind okay and so and what dictates the software are your genetics plus your life's experiences plus your friend Circle yes and the content you consume Etc yes okay yes absolutely okay and then now the artist side has taught me that your mind can and will change continuously throughout your life if you allow it to change yes I have a co-founder on this meditation app I'm building his name is ayushanand he's an iitn so he's like a peak engineer and he's


so he's like a peak engineer and he's one of the most quantitative data oriented people uh and he's also always looking for feedback so when he asked me for feedback all I tell him is work on understanding other people work on empathy look at life from other Isis perspectives and what I mean by that is he sees life from an engineering perspective yes but life can be so many other things absolutely now I'll let you continue because that's also a majority of our listeners a lot of them are from engineering College India is a very mathematics oriented country it is which is why it's difficult to understand mental health and psychology in the first place it is it is so I have a lot of people who think in this quantitative manner coming in also it's not necessarily like Engineers it's also our culture it's how we are brought up in India in India essentially why just India actually from all over the world I've seen people from all over the world if you're brought up in a