in myself what I realize is I don't get to decide how to serve the community I need to be prepared to play the read flute or to pick up the Sword whatever is needed that's the sick narrative and six did this fight people hadn't seen that their musicians will filed are Scholars used to fight because World hadn't seen it and they're like how is this possible because we were inspired by that Shabbat that Gyan Gyan and khadagar not separate things for sex in our DNA from Guru nanaka onwards they're together and when six are separating it themselves you'll see that's why there is a disharmony within the community as well do you want to talk a little bit about where the warrior culture began it's a myth partly you know part of the Indian narrative is that myth I think it suits particular ideology I can share the phrase with you if you want to talk about it don't you think it's a good no like what is wrong


you think it's a good no like what is wrong with being a warrior nothing but we are not just worried I just said that okay it's like I think we have our own just to our Theory it's Guru Gobind Singh who wrote it this will shock you again you know I'm interested in what he writes because everything else is spinning you know or my understanding he says he writes to aurangzeb wrote a letter to aurangzeb it is two copies of it one is in Aurangabad where the copy was made and he uh by Daya Singh one of the five original six punch pyare as we call them he took it to our exit yeah there's a chord in there he's like we will try every other method and after exhausting it we'll pick up the sword now it's Guru Gobind Singh writing this is our just War Theory and the reason I'm saying this in Christianity is the first religion which came up with the just War Theory which never happened during the


the just War Theory which never happened during the Jesus time Saint Augustine did that after hundreds of years but here Guru Gobind Singh is telling us and what did he base it on because gurus lived like that that's why Guru nanak didn't fight with the sword because we believe we're gonna try everything else by the time Guru nanak was imprisoned as I mentioned to you Guru Arjun is imprisoned and tortured now a political assassination attempts a guy named shiha was hired to assassinate him eventually he's murdered in Delhi is fighting battles he's also Target a political assassination this is pretty bloody right but even then when he writes this because it's been demonstrated that we can take everything but don't believe that don't think we can't fight back we will this happened in 20th century I want you to know this under the British too you know those Gurdwara reform thing I was talking about freeing the gurdwaras there were


was talking about freeing the gurdwaras there were akalis akalis is not a party I know it's a political party today akali meant active six akali Kali which means Beyond Death the ones who have married the death which means they are not afraid it's okay if they die when they went to free the gurudwara's and there's a mursha Jato the morcha it's called their pictures and the evidences for this CF Andrews has written long articles on it he says you know the the day they would do or they asked that today we are not fighting back that's the day policemen under the British beat them to death and they did that for days because six ardas is very big when we do Collective prayer we're supposed to stand by whatever we have said and this is throughout our history including when what happened in their Warsaw Complex that's why they don't leave because they didn't ardas people die fighting today that happened in 20th century early akalis did this but the


in 20th century early akalis did this but the day that happened for like two months like that and then one day they run ardas today we are coming back with swords that's the day we gather than kana's Hub back so I like to say to present it you know there's a non-violence of the weak and there's a non-violence of the strong we are the non-violence of the strong we can we can kick your ass yeah but we're gonna do that as a last thing don't think that I'm not capable I'm fully trained I'm gonna restrain myself because I believe in exhausting all means do no harm take no something like that that's one contemporary way to say it it makes a nice t-shirt slogan um coming back to the question I asked you though about the warrior culture thing I think maybe that angle has possibly been used as negative PR for the community saying that oh these people are angry yeah they're like Warriors and that's what the community is pissed off


and that's what the community is pissed off about and listen no we're not angry people it's actually this spiritual Warrior mentality yeah am I right okay but I think let's build on it because um build on it through the stories sure because again teenagers watching this and yeah I can go with you at like really high levels but let's go to the core of the human okay so you know the most popular image of the six these days for last several years has been when you've seen the hungs for example very colorful and you got this Warrior image you know you see coupons and the khandas right and that's the thing that they are the Warriors tradition of the six I want to step back a thing and tell you a little story so there's a ninth group we're talking about some of the gurus I'm gonna come to the ninth Guru there's a ninth Guru his name is politically beheaded in Delhi in 1675 76 maybe okay for political reasons what happens in


76 maybe okay for political reasons what happens in The Narrative is we don't tell what happens after that we do tell this that this happened aurangzeb had ordered it but what happened after that it's not that all of a sudden warrior class started we actually fought battles before that too six guru fought four battles including three against fought 21 battles only three were against mughals people don't know the realities so I want to talk about how this Warrior myth came right it is a myth so gurudeva is assassinated literally we call it martyrdom but politically it's assassination order to death just like you see in Middle East even now public beheadings and then there is 1699 so almost 23 years of period where before Guru Gobind Singh brings out the Khalsa as we say as a warrior image again it's skewed it's not just a warrior but I want to talk about what did he do in those 23 years and people don't talk about that


in those 23 years and people don't talk about that and I want to talk about it he's like we need training the next levels of training he did poetry in anandpur Saab and pondasa which is now in Himachal in multiple places let's train ourselves in how to be great poet that's why he had 52 poets in this court and the foremost among them was used to write poetry in Agra he's from Afghanistan today's Afghanistan but he had a desire to go serve as a poet in the court of Guru Gobind Singh In Anand Prasad he says so there's a poetry training there is Battle training it's called hola Mahala which is coming up as well which means how do you fight mock battles the Warrior part but I want to tell you what there's a scribing training what do you mean how do you fight mock battles so how do you fight battles so there are mock battles for it no we call them trainings these days exercises the attack how do


them trainings these days exercises the attack how do you prepare to attack that's the tradition which is even today celebrated so when you see those crippons and the colors and the large turbans and the chakkers on the head that's one element I want to delete five other elements so there's a training of poetry there's a training of Music how do you sing he's doing that too and he's also doing trainings on how do you fight but I'm gonna use the word fight to describe something now which is why I have issue with just calling ourselves look six are being presented even by sex themselves not as Warriors only they've actually become Fighters and there's a big ish difference between a fighter and a warrior Warrior is trained not to fight ER is always fighting Warrior is very settled Warrior has that we will call today a loaded Glock but not shooting they're not Trigger Happy but they know they're trained not to use it that's how you have to think for warriors they have


how you have to think for warriors they have a code and the adversary also respects that code because they know this is not a fighter he actually is a warrior sex War our narrative has been changed some six have themselves changed the narrative they present themselves as Fighters now we are not today we have garbs which Define Sons it's the behavior your demonstration in life defines if you're a Sant or not living the truth truth Exemplar so that's the seventh part sipahi is a soldier part the one who's trained in the first tradition and then it's a hyphenated word which means they're equally balanced it's like a ship why do you have the equalizing bars because if either side gets heavy you're drowning that's the sick training the spiritual political is equal one or the other cannot Dominate and that's imbalance and then you will drown um while I thought that we'll go in chronological order so this is why podcasts are podcasts uh we can go tangentially yeah uh


are podcasts uh we can go tangentially yeah uh let's talk about Guru Gobind Singh Ji it's 23 years he spent basically coaching an army coaching six okay all six not Army and this is the myth which I have to keep bursting he's coaching six it's a preparation of a Khalsa because Khalsa otherwise becomes very androcentric image I'm using that word intentionally you mean even women were a part of it absolutely you're living in a culture where you don't get that story because that's why I play with the word history because her story is not even included and sex are not immune from it either although we are fighting that battle internally and gurus are training but human beings are human beings they're not including our stories you know if I were to tell you that in 1890s a sick woman general defeated the marathas it will shock you but she did her name was rajkumari sahib Kaur of patiala they were always trained we but we live in a


they were always trained we but we live in a culture right there are the larger culture around you always influences you unless you are Vigilant about your own belief systems and that happens I live in America the American culture influencing me you can't escape it but I must know what I what I've been and what are my wisdoms you know so just like in India you cannot say sick values are Indian values in America I cannot say sick values are American values there'll be a misnomer sick values are sick values we integrate with them with the nationalities we live in right so this is the same way Guru Gobind Singh Is revealing the Khalsa he never said I made the Khalsa the original writing says the Khalsa is revealed in the Ecstasy of the Divine which means it was under training people didn't see it he brought them out on the vasaki day so the training is of the six who want to live this lifestyle it is the order of the Khalsa six are a


it is the order of the Khalsa six are a large tent they're 30 million six in the world not every SEC has a Khalsa but they aspire to become the Khalsa Khalsa is the one if I may use this phrase that the civil servants of the pump that aptitude they have decided needs to be spent on making sure the traditions of the six are kept alive as Guru Gobind Singh and gurnamics have developed them so that's what Guru Gobind Singh did you know um the biggest thing people are aware of now is regarding his four Sons right they died in battle two were bricked alive no remorse what is it so which Warrior will accept that that's why we are not just Warriors your internal has to be so centered that's the meditation for six if I may come back to it that's our simran that's simran literally is Remembrance we live in the remembrance of the one we are the lovers people now use different words literally it means five lovers


now use different words literally it means five lovers so if you see a male chauvinistic androcentric Warrior something ain't right with it I mean how can you be enter women you must Embrace feminism as well you must Embrace what we today call lgbtqia plus issues right that's what that means because we always did that anyone who is considered downtrodden this is a vocabulary of Guru Rands the lowest of the law Guru nanak writes this in Guru gransavi says I identify with them I am not here to emulate The Establishment that's the secret DNA he says I'm not here to emulate the established they already got the privilege and you know he ends that line I want to share that because people have their own idea of grace these days it has become very Hocus Pocus spiritual he says no you want to feel the grace take care of the downtrodden foreign I receive your grace when I take care of unrepresented and underrepresented people's Nations and causes and


unrepresented and underrepresented people's Nations and causes and that's the sick history that's our narrative that's the guru's narrative in Guru grantha that's harshaba that's her Paradigm Guru Gobind Singh did it six of the guru continue to do it we struggle with it but that's so that's that's what Guru Gobind Singh gave us what do you mean we struggle with it because we don't have a narrative right right we don't read the Shabbat anymore now we listen to more podcasts we're part of the problem you can be or you can be part of solutions you are allowing me to share the narrative which is not had in their story so I worry about this stories a lot right let me actually share with you this on Mike here there is a litmus test in Guru grantha which story to share that's how I'm being careful which is what the line is Baba is the Wise One literally which story of the wise one are you


One literally which story of the wise one are you going to share because they're way too many it's a battle of narratives that's what we say today right it's always been the Battle of narratives which version will six present the one aurangzeb road or the one Guru Gobind Singh wrote similarly it's today in which version so that tells us it instructs the six which version it says babaniya kahaniya put the support the one the narratives of the elders the wise ones which have the ability to transform an average child into a progeny so I need to do my work with story I share does it have a transformation ability or is just a feel-good exercise that's why I'm picking my narratives carefully okay grateful to you that you're doing it on the show say that again um I want to bring in historical context again because I've learned that while you're learning about sikhi historical context is so important because of the political DNA let's go go back to let's


the political DNA let's go go back to let's do it in the case of group and saying this will be very interesting okay um maybe give us a bit I know you can't go over the whole thing but give us a bit of the story of Guru Gobind Singh is what I say to six what do we know about him you know if I say to you he was a bihari most people will be like what he's a bihari he's not Punjabi he's born in Patna Patna is the first what I call diaspora 6 Center picked that place you know why he picked it because Punjab and Amritsar he has written this in his father that we cannot tell who is collaborating with the state and who is working with the guru it's so political as in even the six absolutely because it's human behavior right everyone is not trained to do the right thing and even the ones who are trained are not able to do the right thing that's a reality that's a human issue is born


that's a reality that's a human issue is born in Patna I relate to that a lot because Guru Gobind Singh has his own journey to anandpur SAI which is Punjab where the Khalsa was inaugurated and he's traveling through what we now call the central sort of uh civilization there's a Ganges Valley Civilization and there's an Indus Valley Civilization the context of Guru Gobind Singh Is Ganges Valley Civilization he writes about that I've read that it's powerful stuff Guru namak when we started we said it was there's a Hindu and Muslim confrontation of a sword you know where Guru Gobind Singh is born it's Jane and Buddhist where the Renaissance Center is which university what's the one in Bihar nalanda hour and a half from where Buddha had his Nirvana and two hours from where mahavir had his Nirvana it's in that context so his vocabulary is rich with indologies it's a different civilization he talks about what is


it's a different civilization he talks about what is happening when he's traveling from Bihar to Anand Prasad he records them he talks about this idea of understanding what vaishna white tradition is what Yogi tradition is how it has become part of the popular culture and what does it mean for him to exercise this in his capacities his conversations with the Hindus the ranis and the kings of Bihar that's Guru Gobind Singh which we don't hear about so I'll just mention when he has this travel he's five yeah obviously he's extraordinary that's what we are talking about him he's observing what he's seeing when he's traveling but he does not react to everything today I'll tell six why do we react to everything which means we are not secured anymore you witnessed so many things in life but you pick your battle as I end up saying Guru Gobind Singh pick two battles we're gonna do internal house cleaning and we're gonna fight for external Justice


house cleaning and we're gonna fight for external Justice just to put in today's vocabulary so internal house cleaning you did was let's clean up the corrupt sick governance that's what he did you know he never went to Amritsar it had become so corrupt it's a sex Center we have a lot of learnings from Guru Gobind Singh which we don't frequently talk about he never it was so corrupt he's like let's do internal house cleaning our governance got corrupt second thing it was Let's Take on the political Affairs all the hill Chiefs they're 22 Hindu Hill Raja Chiefs those 23 years I talked about 17 18 battles he's fighting with them only one is an ally of Guru Gobind Singh Raja of nahan rest they change their allegiances depending on once we are with aurangzeb sometimes they are not that's the richness of Guru Gobind Singh diplomatic Affairs fightings writing the literature getting the indologies translated in Punjabi and then creating his


the indologies translated in Punjabi and then creating his own larger volume of work with these collections with his court words called vidyasagar granth well what I need you to share with you is all that happened but there came a point in his life when they're crossing a river this is very big in sick history in punjab's history this river is called sarsa and it's called sarsada vichoda separation Etc he gets separated from his family he loses these assets he never documents that the most famous lines of Guru Gobind saying which the world knows which the Bollywood knows he says even with all that gone the only conversation he has is to my beloved friend I just want you to know the condition of the disciples it does not invoke his family he does not invoke the literary knowledges he does not invoke losing Anan because in sick parlance of Guru grantha nothing matters what matters most is my relationship with the divine that's Guru Gobind Singh that's the real


that's Guru Gobind Singh that's the real Guru Gobind Singh In documented history um again many tangential questions also sorry I'm constantly no no no don't apologize um what was happening in Hindustan at this point I think this is very important context for people to just understand because the Indian internet has are now understood chatrapati shivaji Maharaj well uh and generally even though I think there was a phase of the marathas and six were boring there's a lot of mutual respect from the two communities bracket uh but what was happening historically yeah the the the conquest essentially which was happening in India at the time of Guru Gobind Singh it starts when I started talking about Guru take bahadur right like what is happening in Punjab what is happening in Bihar within the community but there's what is happening in South Asia maybe maybe we could actually again bring in Babar so Babar was a contemporary to Guru nanak and as the


was a contemporary to Guru nanak and as the dynasty progresses so does Sikhism yeah uh and you said that um the fifth Guru onwards there was even a lot of battles with Hindu Kings as well yeah both that's yeah so let's ask me a question and I'll respond to that why don't you kind of give not just the historical context of Guru Gobind Singh ji but the entire historical context of Sikhism yeah after Guru nanak so you know the one way to understand chronologically speaking the Sikh Journey especially in a guru period that you're dealing with 1469 to 1708 239 years I like to present as being as 239 years of training and 10 founder gurus so we've talked about what happened in Punjab how are they training the six and how it's not just the six but Hindus and Muslims and tribals and jains and others coming for similar things and many developing affinities without changing their religion because it's so allyship which gets created


their religion because it's so allyship which gets created though allyship gets played out in the larger political con context of South Asia as well I'm using South Asia because in crawls seven countries now modern States right so that what is that context what is happening in India there's a consolidation under the Mughal Empire what people don't know is there is a Mughal Babar ke it's called in Sikh narrative and there is every sick Guru had particular relationship with every Mughal emperor sometimes friendship summarize antagonism because we believe there is no permanent Reliance that's the second narrative by the way in Guru grantha which says that our Alliance is only with the Divine rest depends on what is the project we call it today so every so that's why it's a very tense relationship with jahangir it's a very tense relationship with aurangzeb but I'll pick on jahangir for a second you know because he's doing all sorts of things samughal Empire all sorts of


sorts of things samughal Empire all sorts of things going on the way they deal with Rajasthan with the rajputs is different thing how they deal with our homes in avasam and by the way was asked by the rajput Rajasthani King help he see sword Guru take mother's help to fight the aham dynasty of Assam gurudev went there I just went there to check this place out I've been reading about it that he's like no let's figure out how to create a treaty between the two of you so gurus have played that role people don't even know treaty between the home king and the aurangzeb subordinate uh King uh from here who was a Hindu Raja in some cases aurangzeb's um Prince you know uh Guru take mother helped as well in other cases they had Direct confrontation like a physical battle even comes after not Zafar just sorry after aurangzeb dies Guru Gobind Singh comes to see him on his way before he goes to Deccan


him on his way before he goes to Deccan in Agra what I'm trying to say is there is a state relationship with the gurus none of the gurus this is the exception and this will also tell you about Sikh dma why certain sex don't do this even today none of the gurus appear in the court of the mughals they get summoned they send their Ambassador Emissary including his son one time who changed The Narrative of the six Guru said don't come back because you were not sent here to represent and get afraid so this is a very tense relationship we call it diplomatic missions today in short what was the story over the story is that there is a there is a hymn you'll call it there's a Sabbath in asakivar Guru where it says it's is the son of harai the seventh Guru who had 2200 Horsemen with him as well as set up the animal sanctuary in Punjab it's that Guru he sends his son is like okay he's


Guru he sends his son is like okay he's someone that you're writing something against Muslims he comes to the code of aurangze if he gets too afraid he's although his Guru suck but you know you can imagine it's like showing up in Supreme Court and you don't know what to say you don't have the training now you have lawyers training you right and he changes the world to beimaan the news spreads and his father as well as his Guru says no you're my son but nobody has right to even orally change what's written Guru Gran Saab you must be able to explain it because we are not we are not dehumanizing anyone in there it was actually using one of the metaphors uh about the Muslim rights uh uh what happens the point is those kind of things were happening at the same time Guru Gobind Singh's Army I'll use one example you know many a time they had very few sex in his army this people might not know first battle Guru


army this people might not know first battle Guru Gobind Singh Ford is called battle of pangani three or four six were with him there is 700 men of is called his people came and foreign they never fight he's like every udasi left which are like a sadhus you know is one of the parampuras they all left they got so afraid that they might get killed in this battle but their head stayed back he's like so this is what Guru does he inspires all sorts of people from various backgrounds six non-sex Muslims Hindus odyssis and they work with the guru to fight on his behalf in the battle what I'm trying to say is uh India has its own version of you know what happens with the marathas what happens with the rajputs the Sikh version is the creative excitement gurus created many people work with them some became six but many didn't Guru never asked him to become six it was always a personal choice in sikhi this is why you


a personal choice in sikhi this is why you will see many six are you know practitioners of the faith many aren't and we don't have a dissonance like that many even leave the faith we are okay with that what is leaving the faith not you know uh looking like a sick do you think that's truly leaving sorry do you think that is leaving the Faith No it's presented as such look leaving the faith at the end of the day is not being a practitioner of the faith but who decides that at a personal level it's only your decision but there are Community levels when you are a representative in the community then there are protocols you must adhere to so that's it's at that level I was saying leaving the faith right you cannot misrepresent the faith you must adhere to normal protocols more than them because it's like being an ambassador ambassadors have to be held to different standards so Community does that by the way if an average person doesn't wear a turban or is


an average person doesn't wear a turban or is not not able to represent six they don't go after them because it's a personal choice and we value that but if a leadership does that then they take them to task it doesn't matter who they are including our Kings because now you're an ambassador and you are held to different standards you have a public accountability um now I will let you continue what Guru Gobind sings the idea that each Guru Had State relationship is very important for us because that's what we are taught that there must always be a dialogue with the state earlier State used to be imperialism right and we deal with this element even today so when six having State relationships what does it mean public dialogue political dialogue it continues into the British and we don't have a monolith there either which we have to understand because now the guru is not there 18th century Sikh history which I want to refer to a little bit what people don't know so what happens when


bit what people don't know so what happens when Guru Gobind Singh left this Earth you can imagine when a prophet read I mean gurus are not prophets gurus are not oftars but I'm using that word just to explain the best period in Sikh history is the 18th century it is the most bloody you know there were two genocidal campaigns where half of the Sikh population was killed in one day and another one where two-thirds of the sick population was killed in one day but even then we fought Ahmad shabdali seven times when he used to loot India and take women as slaves we used to intercept them the six used to intercept at this cost and eventually what happens and this is very very important because a period came in Indian Punjab history Indian history South Asian history but I'm going to call it Punjab history Punjab was also ruled by invaders for 700 years obviously India was too in 1765 after the two major genocidal campaigns captures


1765 after the two major genocidal campaigns captures Lahore so this idea of politically capturing power is very much part of sex tradition because they said look if nothing is working if the ruler is so corrupt we have to now capture Lahore and run in that way it is 1765 it takes another 20 plus years before Ranjit Singh consolidates into a punjab's Empire but that's the history we actually did that in 18th century and people don't know this was an Afghan he was an Afghan he's that's his common name but actual name is same guy absolutely that's just I'm not gonna go into the Bollywood versions of these even their issues with it really oh yeah I've made it to six not six well Akbar had a relationship with six which I can get into which are never talked about most of it is positive but there is a non-positive part what is the non-positive because you see what happens is there's a secularization of everything in the way we present in the


of everything in the way we present in the Bollywood Hollywood stories but the other thing like beer world I grew up listening to beer world is considered that's not the narrative he is a he's the only non-muslim minister in his cabinet his name is Mahesh Das Bhatt he deputed to kill Guru Arjun really this is gonna shock you now because Guru Arjun refused to pay the tax the taxation was for not practicing any other religion and guruvarian has created such a big Center think about this foreign who am I otherwise and Narayan is not just a God narayana in Hindu mythology Narayan is an attribute of the Divine Narayan is iron where you have stability in the water just think about that how do you become stable in water so Narayan is that ability of the individual when it is such a surface is so liquidy volatile you still remain stable and that's the quality Guru Arjun invokes when people are being deputed to be to assassinate him


people are being deputed to be to assassinate him Guru Arjun was assassinated he was captured he was tortured for days and this is a very interesting period in Sikh history his body was never found you know Punjab is all about rivers so I'm gonna invoke that little bit here the second narrative is that he entered Ravi and he never came out in fact the sixth narrative is even today he lives in Ravi gurdas has written this which is the sick narrative that Guru is still living in River Ravi it's a pleasant way of saying because what happened was he was tortured for several days you know we say he served in a higher and played there's a burning sand on him and then and by the way Hindus Muslims his own family members they're all collaborated with these state his brother did this is why it's never to say six are very clear this is not about religion this is about individuals who are power hungry wants gifts


about individuals who are power hungry wants gifts from imperialism they'll all do this doesn't matter what their religion is it's a human tendency right because you want to be sided with the power six have always been like I said no it's okay even if my own brother is doing it it is because it's not a brother thing it's a human power hungry thing anyway so Guru Arjun they said can you take a bath and they're like yeah you should take a bath because when your body you know when your skin is coming off with the heat they thought there will be even more tortures when he goes in body in the in the water river uh in the river Ravi and Guru Arjun enters that and never comes out and this becomes part of the sick character I want to that's why I'm sharing this you'll notice this this is very common understanding of six okay you can kill them you can torture them to death but don't insult them it comes from here we


but don't insult them it comes from here we don't take insult very well yeah we'll take torture we'll take death because our Guru taught us that you know what you're not gonna spit on us you're not gonna dehumanize us yes you can torture us to death because Guru teaches us that we should have the ability that's the same run the remembrance is so strong with the Divine with the one that the physical body Ikea we can live with the torture on that but that remembrance must not break which is also where respect and love is greeted with 10x amount of respect and love something like that actually it becomes you actually know what exit will be because it's dependent on how strong your relationship is you know today we it's like entropy kind of thing going on it could be 2x it could be one and a half or thousand X it's the level of the strength and Intimacy in the relationship with the divine want to say something egoistical a little bit egoistic


want to say something egoistical a little bit egoistic I feel like aspects of Sikhism rub off on all punjabis there is an element of Sikhism in all punjabis which is why not you know yes I'm gonna double down on that what we don't realize is everyone in Punjab got affected by this everyone even the jut of Punjab is different than the jars of other areas otherwise I'm just put in perspective you know how so the creativism idea gets into play otherwise you know juts are so called quote unquote low cast but they became rulers in Punjab how come it didn't happen anywhere else in in India yeah every Community got uplifted because they all believed you know everyone used to read japji in Punjab many still do it is not a sick thing for six it might be part of religiosity but for punjabis in fact Professor puran Singh was a writer I like him because he was you know he was never published in India that's why I quote him


was never published in India that's why I quote him so much there's a whole conspiracy to publish him he wrote in English from 1910 only in 1960s he got published in Punjab everything got published in England because he was too explo he was telling the real narrative not his story but what the guru story is what the sex story is he's written that he says even the rivers of Punjab Singh jabji just think about that for a second tagore says that Osho says that whatever people may think of any of these personalities the sufis of Punjab said the sufis of punjab's vocabulary change with the arrival of the guru this again will shock you the first here is not varishas that's the most popular one the first here is written by the mother gulati he was the sake of the third guru guru amardas because we actually embrace that Love Culture the legendary love stories of Punjab are embraced by sex we wrote them we wrote a version of them


we wrote them we wrote a version of them and the first here was written by a Sikh it's also why the best love songs always in Punjabi that now it's debatable whether they're loved but the point is well actually let me differentiate since we are talking about this who is actually a theologian he talks about the love stories of Punjab he mentions so we Embrace this yeah like today's Sikh religiosity may not get this they'll get afraid because I believe many of them are not Shabbat born you know many of them are just religion born right now says he references he references now he does not reference which is a popular narrative today also right and I got curious I didn't know about legendary love stories of Punjab um I may you may think I'm Punjabi but I'm not I know that's not as I am in my college days I picked up the legendary love stories of Punjab written by some you know white woman and I read it I'm like oh


know white woman and I read it I'm like oh that's why because in Mirza sahiba it became about devdas it's about fight well the Popular Song also says right and you know I noticed this in today's culture when I'm listening to Punjabi songs I'm scanning through them very few are about they're more about Mirza sahiba what does that tell you about today's culture because actually they are being Mississauga here ranja will die but will not live in separation Mirza saiba will get assassinations done and that's what you're saying these days so here is that protagonist who's questioning the family the tribe and the transactionization of women that's here I don't think we get what here is and she's a married woman you know it's a blasphemy in Islam for a married woman to go have a lover but our Theologian is saying if you want to love the guru learn it from her this is sikhi one thing I'm really enjoying about talking to you sir is like


enjoying about talking to you sir is like we've covered so many different aspects of the subject over two episodes um I have to cover a little bit about Guru Gobind Singh ji and his main contributions to sikhi in general and touch upon Maharaja Ranjit Singh a little bit because it's another internet term that comes up a lot so uh maybe again starting from historical context I'm sorry I keep pulling you back to it but it's the easiest way for listeners to connect uh what happened in Guru Gobind Singh's life like especially once the Khalsa actually began at the end of that 23 year period so 23 years he's imparting different skills of which one is fighting to all six what happens at the 23 year mark so contrary to the popular belief the battle started before Khalsa was inaugurated battle started much earlier which means everything is happening but now it's like a mentorship an apprenticeship but khals are what people don't realize is called Khalsa


are what people don't realize is called Khalsa to be his Guru this is disruption and flipping what is a norm in the world like if you are the guru restaurant if you are the mentor restaurant he's saying the training is so good that I submit to them now can you I mean this is today we call in a very business-like way we call this a leader servant model Guru Gobind Singh lived it he did it you know six call him the shahenshah and the Pacha you know bigger than the badshah because badshah is only in the physical domain Pasha is physical and metaphysical domain yeah Guru Gobind Singh on the kasaki day people don't realize inaugurated the Khalsa and then he sat on his knees that now make me part of the Khalsa so humility in practice and democratizing Leadership we call it today representative democracy that in training of 239 years is complete the only consultancy you need is of Guru granth sahib this is the vision the


Guru granth sahib this is the vision the principles and the interpretation of that the currents how do you keep it contemporary decision making has to come to the first principles distributed among five people so that five is the idea of punch which is an indie tradition but now he's doing it in practice and since then that's why we don't anytime say community goes through a single leadership we actually are downfall starts a single leadership yeah because Guru said no don't you have it anymore because single person is imperfect regardless of their excellences and they will falter so he said let's have five and that's why in today's boards they say you need odd numbers whether it's the judges or the board directors they say have five or have seven or have nine right so this idea of five is there very much so Guru Gobind Singh did that sick Community from there onwards goes through 100 Years of fighting Invaders in the absence of Guru Gobind Singh because Guru


absence of Guru Gobind Singh because Guru Gobind Singh has said let's go now actually create sea change enough is enough Banda Singh bahadur people know about it maybe maybe they don't he's the one in fact my friend and I were at Harvard at some discussions several years ago and one of the professors of South Asian history was sitting there and they started saying what happened to Mughal Dynasty and my friend harpreet who was doing PhD at the time at Harvard he looked at me he's like harinder you want to answer that I said yeah that happened we don't teach that bahadur literally demolished the Mughal Raj and he paid for it for his with his life you know for seven years he gave him havoc and he established what's called Khalsa rule he established it in May 1710 and then eventually they got to home six years later and they brought him in a cage to Delhi and publicly assassinated 700 men they


to Delhi and publicly assassinated 700 men they captured and in front of him that tortured him by killing his son in front of him and shoving in his mouth it's very gruesome and very bloody and the reason I'm mentioning this is people you know everyone knows Gotham Minar half a kilometer from kuta Minar is a place called katalga where they did this to Banda bahadur same Banda bahadur which rabindranath tagore writes a poem that Banda is his poem that bandi I don't know people have read this what I'm saying is historians and Poets are very aware of it but they don't talk enough about it Banda Singh bahadur is the one who took care of the Mughal Dynasty is one narrative which is not highlighted enough so sick history is something like that you have 100 Years of that and Ranjit Singh gets mentioned because Ranjit Singh Consolidated the Sikh Empire we call it today six have never been in majority


we call it today six have never been in majority so this is a contemporary phenomena too I think it's important for people to know you know Ranjit Singh was invited to rule Lahore 19 people wrote a letter 19. he didn't fight to capture Lahore Hindus and Muslims of Lahore leadership wrote a letter to him that the six who captured Lord earlier remember I said in 1760s they were called the pangi missiles they were they're like we are inviting you to become our Maharaja because we need beggar help better help we need a better ruling we need a better governance so he's the one who created that Empire who ruled for 40 years had five treaties with the British with the Chinese with the Tibetans people don't know this part of History he was the only indigenous ruler of South Asia British never fought him they feared him the day he dies bohook and croque has to say with assassinations with buying people off buying his generals


assassinations with buying people off buying his generals they finally annexed the Punjab in 1849. so but Ranjit Singh is that that who showed a model you know the France is considered the premier Multicultural model and 10 years ago it failed they couldn't figure out how to deal with their African population who they thought they had integrated no capital punishment during his Raj he has Hindu officers Muslim officers man from Philadelphia serves in his army his General is one of them as a Frenchman called Ventura so this is the thing he created right he equally gave money to run actually I'm not talking about education there is a serious report on what was the educational system of Punjab at the time because British were trying to copy it believe it or not Ranjit Singh spent more per capita on education than the British Empire did in England the system of Education he really he himself was not very well educated but he was very well trained in sikhi he was a Khalsa


very well trained in sikhi he was a Khalsa he had taken Amrit as well at a very young age his grandfather Baba Choda Singh was the one who had captured Kashmir actually people don't realize Kashmir was part of the Sikh Empire so Ranjit Singh Is that example of multiculturalism which worked he he had no State religion in fact he did not even make Punjabi the state language this may shock people his State language remained the link of Franco remained Farsi because that has been the tradition so this is the secureness right like he's sick he's very clear everyone knows he's a sick but the amount of money given to maintain sick places of learning and worship and Hindu places and Muslim places included equally given grants to them it was this was a huge model uh and then people loved it people of all denominations loved it there is a question um that I've planned since before we even began to speak which is the explanation of the


began to speak which is the explanation of the 5Ks I don't think this is available on the internet in the form that it should be available in like everyone knows what it is but I'd like for you to give a little bit of the spiritual angle on it as well five k's of the Khalsa cannot be explained with any utilitarian value it never have no explanation was provided by Guru Gobind Singh I want to start there so that's important right and this is the same reason none of the gurus also commission history no biography was written by of any Guru they never commissioned it because for them individuality is not important the idea is important so 5K is there is no utilitarian explanation people try to give it it will never make sense so what is said what is said is they are the gifts from the Beloved now who finds the meaning in gifts I can give you historical angle but that's not important here the gifts value is between the one who gives it and the


value is between the one who gives it and the one who receives it the way ones who received it have explained it for themselves this is how I identify with Guru Gobind Singh now there is a kada there's a krapan there is a kachara there is case I mean and there's ganga people can put values to it but it's a wedding gift I'm gonna use that word because what the people who receive that they're taking Amrit Amrit is not just a spiritual ceremony initiation ceremony Amrit is dead Amrit makes it Opposite Immortal which means from here onwards the value and the fear you have of your life is eliminated which means I'm Marrying the guru this is the spiritual mysticism when you marry someone you receive gifts these are the gifts because I want to be like Guru Gobind Singh and Guru Gobind Singh finds value in these just like within the guru period they gifted the Gyan and the kharag and the Khalsa period


Gyan and the kharag and the Khalsa period onwards Guru Gobind Singh onward these are the gifts received and we cherish them there are foreigners watching this also could you quickly explain the 5Ks the K the word K became known because in Punjabi or in local language of the time all the letters the names of the each gift starts with the k sound or Ka sound and that's why they are called five k's but I want to come back to it you'll also have to just listen to them yeah and explain what it is oh sure ideally what it stands for also that will be utilitarianism okay so that will be a problem okay but take it as far as you can so the 5Ks are the day you get initiated there is a whole ceremony ceremony has its own powerful purposes but I was actually saying it is not just spiritual because what happens that day before your what happens that day is you say your father is Guru Gobind Singh from here


your father is Guru Gobind Singh from here onwards your mother is Mata sahib Kar one of the wives of Guru Gobind Singh who was not his conjugal wife she's the mother of the Khalsa and you belong to anandpur from their day onwards which means everyone knew this is why there was a tradition in Punjab there when Hindu families will have one son who's a sick because they belong this person is going to do the right thing when the push comes to shove they will go do whatever is necessary including giving up their life so that was the order of the Khalsa That Remains the order of the Khalsa so it's a very political ceremony you see everyone knew from that day onward your family the state the protagonist the antagonists the adversaries that this individual man or a woman they have married the guru they are not afraid of anything they will do the right thing at any cost so one of the things there is you receive case which means you're


the things there is you receive case which means you're here in fact many people kept them beforehand even before they went through ceremony because they're preparing right you have to prepare to receive many things so case is uncut hair there are all sort of explanations in mysticism of the world religions something is there about the hair Guru doesn't provide that like you keep your hair we don't cut it that's why and then we are not like Rastafarians or the yogis so you got to keep them tidy grooming we call it today so the Kanga the comb is there to keep it tidy you know so we want to keep it clean because we want that's why bathing cleaning is part of that tradition again uh Kanga is something very big you know when Guru Gobind Singh for example after a battle six world including Muslims over there they'll say can I have your case because in Islam having a strand of hair of a prophet is considered The Ultimate Gift so there's something with the


considered The Ultimate Gift so there's something with the hair which is even in the Kanga it's it's a mysticism idea which you find in mystical Traditions globally and then there is Kara all sort of explanations are there but it's a marker some I I've gone through many explanation but nothing works it's a bangle too it's a hathkadi is it a Bengal I don't know it's a reminder that I am of the guru there's a kirpan people have created all sorts of explanations it's off it's a weapons of offensive weapon defensive weapon what is more important is he didn't call it sword which are the existing vocabularies he called it kripan which I want to explain actually the nerdiness the etymology of the word is kirpa is Grace on his honor something which is used gracefully to protect honor this is why only Warriors know what to do with karpan the fighter will use it every single chance no you don't you you gotta use it only to


you don't you you gotta use it only to protect honor and not just yours anyone's and then kachera is under shorts which is to do with because you see in indic Traditions there are many who actually get rid of all clothing and their Warriors they will lay other clothings idea here was that you should have that on so you're always ready the Readiness was related to it so you wear something you don't stay naked and you are ever ready to just get on a battlefield without having to put on the whole armor as well there are all sorts of explanations with it but it's some undergarment is what it's saying not being naked that's it those are the five k's but they're gifts from the guru and marrying the guru is actually a gesture which I personally if I may say this you know because ceremonies are not powerful if you think about them right now we're thinking about them any ceremony becomes incredibly powerful when you think with them so the ones


powerful when you think with them so the ones who goes through that process only they know what it is just like a wedding you can't ask uh newly married woman why is she wearing a particular shingar if you ask for that analysis you should slap you analysis the meaning is to be felt and experienced and it's between the lover and the Beloved and that's why we call our gurus the Beloved Pacha Sacha Parsha the Eternal Pacha we call them the groom as well because we become the women in that we take the feminine form including men this is very very important because gurus present themselves as feminine when they talk about the Divine it's not that because in the world he is still being used to refine God gurus don't do that we actually call it ajundi which is the word I forgot to explain earlier I really forgot to mention it means Beyond gender genderless so gurus are going the other way to say we gotta carry that feminine angle with us because


we gotta carry that feminine angle with us because the patriarchy and Purity are still a big problem they were problem earlier even 2023 yeah and they're confronting it head-on now we gotta get rid of this nonsense uh because Purity is in the mind not in the bodily functions speaking about 2023 and um confrontation generally so it's a little raw question so I hope it doesn't offend you no no I'm not gonna get offended I have a pretty thick skin no no I mean okay this is something I always wondered being Punjabi and I think this podcast is the right place to ask that question and I've asked this question to a lot of military folks as well why do sick people actually make great soldiers to the degree where you have an Empire like the Sikh Empire where you have so many six in the militaries of the globe generally you know that's right not just the Indian military yeah uh where does that Warrior element Soldier element come from


where does that Warrior element Soldier element come from though I know you've answered a part of it but there's got to be something what makes six great warriors yeah is it the size and strength of being Punjabi or is it like something else according to you so we have to deconstruct couple of things there because that's how stereotypes get built stereotypes always have an element of truth but we oversimplify them and it becomes mythical then and they are problematic then look first of all six are not one ethnicity all six are not juts for example so we gotta relax it on we never say that sex also make great writers because there are several so what has happened in the Punjabi context is there are two traditional occupations when we talk about economies of the world especially what are the two traditional things it's farming and it's Soldier so when it was farming in Soldier that's what you see most Sixth and Punjabi is doing um when economies are changing sex are doing other


um when economies are changing sex are doing other things too I mean we are in various forms now parts of heads of departments parts of musical culture the film industry many were not accepted so they change their names I don't know if you know that many are six golzar is a sick people don't know this really yes you should read his story he writes about it he talks about it because he was not being accepted as a Sikh yes so here when I say nation building is needed there are elements wow there are elements would you name anyone else well I just named one because he has come out it's not my place let people tell on their own because I have to respect their confidences he is he's mentioned it there are lots of people who've not come out about oh absolutely I mean I'm gonna leave it at that right so many things have happened in last hundred years as well so my point is we are not saying that they are great businessmen you know Delhi the New Delhi


are great businessmen you know Delhi the New Delhi seven contractors four or six we never say they're great contractors you should so next time you go to Delhi Drive by The rashmavan there's a plaque there you should see four names or six foreign of your question six are not risk-averse people whatever is risky we do it because faith and risk are directly proportional we are people of faith things which are not being done we used to be trendsetters we still are like that to some extent but not to large extent and that's our kind of internal struggle going on but we have always done that I I as I said you know venturing out to foreign countries was a tough thing six did it in the early days now everyone gets people like me get on you know triple sevens and Dreamliners they get there quickly earlier it was a journey it was a task it was you're not sure if you're gonna get there right so that's what sex are that's the DNA we are not


what sex are that's the DNA we are not risk-averse it's not profession of army it was a traditional profession so a defense minister of Canada is a sick he's a good friend of mine but we don't say what about other six there are 19 other MPS as well who are six what about all the heads of departments who have become six it's just you know what we end up highlighting and that's what stereotyping becomes which is problematic so V6 are all they are warriors as well is what I say I don't run away from it just like if you say Guru Gobind Singh is a warrior that's making him too small the phrase on Guru Gobind Singh Is badshah barvesh we have forgotten the Darvish part he's a hyphenation of what the world called saintly people and Soldier people it's badshah darvesh he's a prophet Emperor yeah so let's not forget the prophetic part this is the end of the episodes how was it for you oh


end of the episodes how was it for you oh it's an interesting Journey it's a different Journey okay uh I what I've liked so far is actually all of it it's pretty real and I appreciate that um mostly people have manufactured questions I think you're exploring and I appreciate that you're venturing into no no I can't claim what is the second narrative but you are venturing into in the vicinity of the second narratives which is what I try to share that's all you can do the one thing that I've realized is that in modern times there's way too many narratives about the same thing out there all you can do is get closer and closer to the truth through questions yes for me this uh was effectively the first conversation on sikhi that I've had and there's going to be more I've done an incredible one with uh uh from but that was again more in a spiritual context this is a real Indian history which is again the core principle of this show so


which is again the core principle of this show so I thank you on behalf of the entire audience as well so thanks for teaching us so much uh and what I will say is that uh people like you need to come out more on the internet and teach an entire generation about everything that you've studied in your life like the stuff that took you decades to learn we very greedily want to take from you in a few hours so I urge you to be on more podcasts and come back on the show because you've had a crazy life as well outside of your learnings about sikhi so well as this inshallah let's see what's possible but I'm not a teacher I am very clear I'm what I've shared with you and what your audience will hear it's I'm retelling I'm trying to retell it from the source as I understand it but I'm trying to base it on the source of Truth in sikhi rather than my gut feelings or have begged emotions because I think


feelings or have begged emotions because I think those are important but those are not sick narrative that will become harinder's narrative then and I think today we were trying to do a bit more on sick narrative I I added my narrative in few places where it was personal but largely it is about sex narrative which is really about South Asian history which got globalized yes so again just very grateful towards you and I'm hoping to speak to you again that's what I will say so thank you thank you sir that was the episode for today my producer shrutesh watched this episode reviewed it and said this is a true podcast until this point in our podcasting Journey we've had to cut episodes down to an hour sometimes down to 45 minutes just so that they're consumed in the entirety but I feel with where podcasting is going in India you need extremely long in-depth conversations just like this to be laptop by the audiences I feel we're at the brink of


the audiences I feel we're at the brink of true podcasting in India I'm glad to be one of the mediums to bring you through podcasting and I'm extremely glad I've spoken to harinder Singh I do regret not doing this in Hindi a little bit I feel like it could have spread out even more but we will do that very soon if you're sick watching this please tell me how I could have done a better job with this particular podcast watching this I hope you spread this as far and as wide as is possible this was the runway show follow us on Spotify a few episodes available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world and if you wish to support team beer biceps even more with our other endeavors our meditation app level supermind it's now live on the App Store on Play Store so begin your meditation Journey grow your mind take your mind to deeper places within itself and grow along with us on TRS lots of love [Music] foreign


with us on TRS lots of love [Music] foreign [Music]


so there are there are likely for example Uranus is a planet which is like having a pole tilt which is directly almost particular to the direction of Sun so it's something like a like a ball rolling uh because it's it's other planets are like 23 24 degree tilt but this is 90 degree tilt exetera that's right and another crazy thing is about the Venus which is having an up or Direction opposite rotation so that the sunrise the typical proverb will sun rising in the west and setting in the East will happen in that in that kind of planet instead of sending a person into the future you can transmit information into the future into the future the time travel to future is not having any theoretical problem it's only a technological problem but technology is ah technology is not available right now to send a actual human being into future I was looking forward to this podcast for an extremely long time and trust me if you like chatter about UFOs aliens science fiction oriented Concepts like time travel


aliens science fiction oriented Concepts like time travel like the future of science this conversation with ISRO scientist jijit Nadu muri is going to be the conversation you've been looking forward to trust me when I say this if you enjoy these slightly alternative conversations but if you want to back it up with science this is the episode for you if you can't consume the entire podcast because this one was slightly long and heavy we have a highlights Channel on YouTube it's called TRS Clips if you want to increase your attention span then meditate using the meditation app level it will help you begin your meditation journey and then you'll be able to watch uh episodes in their entirety and finally I'll say follow us on Spotify where Spotify exclusive every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world UFOs aliens you'll get to know the truth in this particular episode enjoy yourselves [Music] thank you Nado morisa welcome to the ranveer show how are you yeah


welcome to the ranveer show how are you yeah I'm fine thank you you know we've got so many demands to bring an ISRO scientist on the show uh you're a very hot property on the internet why do you think that is why do you think the audience is so fascinated by ISRO scientists because uh primarily because ISRO is such a different organization it's a government organization but it has caught the imagination of all the youngsters and of course and the entire Youth of the country because of the the way uh like the launches are happening and uh the kind of achievements Israel was having in the last three four decades and even recently uh so many uh kind of uh things which are like not I don't say science fiction but something which every Indian will be feel proud of going to the moon going to the Mars so it's like uh something like uh it has got an aura of itself that ISRO has that kind of uh you can say Fame and also it can Captivate


you can say Fame and also it can Captivate the the mind of the youth definitely that's that could be the reason okay uh one thing I understood about scientists is that most scientists actually began to fall in love with science through science fiction and we all Saw movies we read books which actually got us inclined towards the world of science and then the ones who were very inclined towards it became scientists so in the modern days as a scientist what do you really do at ISRO like I know it's a very wrong question but what does a scientist address do like what are you kind of accepting research on and how is ISRO built specifically from a scientist perspective in terms of our different scientists um assigned to different projects assigned to different fields how would you begin to explain this yeah uh so basically uh in ISRO the primary focus is on the the launching of the vehicles that is uh the what you call correctly called Rocket but it is called launch vehicles and it has a massive


it is called launch vehicles and it has a massive power like take uh two two or three or four tons of payload into the space so that is the primary activity that Israel is doing but it has got uh the launch vehicle is the base and then it has the satellite part of it where you bring in all the uh like percent sensors Etc so it's like exploration exploration of the planets of the moon or like sensing the different parameters on the Earth surface so these are all kind of one part of it and the on the next level of it that is launch a vehicle satellite on the third level you have the applications which is like a specific like remote sensing for example creating the map of reverse uh even Saraswati River was like discovered like that so all these things happen so this is the three three different categories that you find in ISRO and I was fortunate to work in the launch Vehicle area mostly where I launched the gslv series Etc that's one thing and of course if you


Etc that's one thing and of course if you look at the organization is pretty much big uh it's like uh like around 60 16 000 to 25 000 there is a expansion that has happened so that that is distributed all over India okay with big centers being uh Dakota the launch pad or the the Spaceport of India and then Bangalore it is a focus for satellites and Ahmedabad is focused for the application part of it okay and like and trivandrum is another important original Center where a lot of things happen Abdul Kalam worked there with that small rocket which here took in the bicycle Etc that is very famous in the internet so those things so overall uh this is what uh primarily the Israel does launch Vehicles satellites and applications okay when you say applications what does it entail yeah so the uh like just like the satellites it's as a payload on top of the launch vehicle like a satellite some typically have a 210 to uh like 100 kilogram in weight the application sits on top


100 kilogram in weight the application sits on top uh off of the satellite it's a payload for the satellite like a laser or a camera camera a laser camera sensors or any kind of extreme experimental unit like it can do chemistry like chemical analysis of your atmosphere it can study the Rays coming from sun or some Stars any kind of you can say scientific instrument is the application okay uh and the reason it requires this much research is because up in space the conditions are different much harsher so therefore it requires a lot of work to be done on Earth to be able to work in space exactly yeah okay all right uh I'm going to ask you a slightly intense question it's a yes or no question um are there secret projects that you're not allowed to talk about yeah yeah definitely but uh that we should keep it aside okay okay um okay separate separate uh kind of kind of related question uh you know what this show is famous for like this show the podcast you know what it's


like this show the podcast you know what it's famous for it you you bring uh like uh unknown facts to the youth that is one of the thing we also talk about things which are a little Larger than Life maybe a little bit on the Paranormal side so uh I've always wanted to ask an ISRO scientist this do you believe in Alien sir yes you believe in aliens yes okay yeah uh why do you say definite yes so because many people think that the uh the concept of alien is in the realm of a paranormal kind of or it's some something like a fiction yeah but uh just based on the pure scientific principles if you look at uh because Earth is uh just one planet and uh it's just a sun the the the star sun which is uh the Earth is rotating around sun is one of the billions of uh stars in the Milky Way galaxy and you have billions of galaxies in the universe so um the probability of only having intelligence species just in Earth uh


probability of only having intelligence species just in Earth uh if you look at all the billions and trillions of planets that is possibly available in the universe is very very rare I am just inverting that probability that just we being only intelligent species in the universe is the high there's a very low probability for that um like mathematically mathematically it is impossible okay so that just only one planet have intelligent species so the natural consequence is that in the universe it is teaming with intelligent species okay any of those secret projects related to aliens or some kind of alien life um I will not be able to uh like um this aliens is not the means you can say that's not many there are different kind of secret projects which uh which is better we cannot have okay no problem conversations but I am giving you the the most important factor that uh like uh means acknowledging or believing in Alien is not something which is absurd yeah and you can get it from like I'm giving you like


can get it from like I'm giving you like authentically from a scientist I'm saying it's POS it's a kind of natural in the universe to have uh intelligent species like humans and the second consequence because your question have another consequence like because whether the aliens are there uh in our local neighborhood so that is the most important question the thing is you must you mean the solar system yes so the the natural because that is another because mathematically the existence of intelligent species is given there are no doubt about it people who argue opposite seems to be kind of absurd basically now whether the second question whether they're they are available or present in the uh in our premises that is uh like our neighborhood planets uh moon or uh in the in the earth like around in the area of earth that is what the kind of question where people will be like gray like some people will say yes some people will say no so even there so there are two camps whether they are there or


so there are two camps whether they are there or not in our premises so I have like based on my own kind of it's not nothing I I don't put Israel here but uh my own kind of uh analysis independent analysis uh like seems that there is a kind of alien that is intelligent persons other than human persons in our planet itself in our planet yes you mean Earth yeah yeah and there is some other intelligent yeah I mean saying that like there is an ambient uh Alien presence all over the universe what does that mean means because of the mathematical probability okay because uh you you should have the uh intelligent species other than uh humans in the universe that is the natural probability that is that is what why did you call it ambient Ambient means uh it's like it's again ambient basically based on probability okay so if you give if you take a given you take a sector of the Milky Way galaxy then there are certain number of uh habitable planets that is possible in those uh


uh habitable planets that is possible in those uh in that particular sector and out of that kind of habitable planets a lot of them can be advanced civilizationally advanced and a lot of them can be of the level of human human being so human being uh like our kind of capabilities uh if you measure uh basically uh like we have just uh have the full control I mean I would say more or less have full control of the single planet Earth and we are capable of exploring our Stellar neighborhood so there are categories for the designating aliens uh based on this this capability so this is the this is one of the base capability that we say that any kind of sentient beings that is what I'm including that's colloquial aliens uh they can have in different levels of technology so one is they have control of their own planet second level is uh not only they can control their Planet I mean they can navigate around the planet within within a day but they are also capable of exploring in the neighborhood


they are also capable of exploring in the neighborhood the Stellar neighborhood so we are at that stage so you have you can have uh these aliens in different systems that is similar kind of habitable planets which are much more advanced than us mainly because they started earlier because that is a that is one possibility again this is again mathematical possibility that I am talking about because Sun started at the birth of sun happened uh somewhat uh like during the middle age of the universe so Universe the birth of universe the current theories mostly between 15 to 13 billion years the universe has expanded and it has already originated out of there somewhere sun is a kind of a second generation third generation star so there are stars which are born and died much earlier than the this current generation of sun you can think about Sun as a like second generation third generation star so you have first generation and second generation Stars which are older than Sun uh so all the habitable planets which are revolving around such as


the habitable planets which are revolving around such as star will have a civilization which have already advanced more advanced than us so these kind of civilizations uh they can like go to the next level of your technological advancement that is not only exploring your Cellar neighborhood but inhabiting The Cellar neighborhood you mean for egg for example in our solar system creating a civilization on Mars yeah terraforming terraforming Mars Moon Mars and Europa these are the kind of even people have decided based on the kind of climatic conditions and the proximity to the Earth there is a kind of well-defined progression of how Humanity will expand into solar system so uh the the first will be Moon because of the proximity so moon is not habitable it is an empty space but it is very Pro very much close to Earth because of which you can transfer water or any kind of Natural Resources between Earth and Moon so Moon can have a very hyperbility of being colonized maybe just at the same time when Mars is colonized


just at the same time when Mars is colonized see Mars have a more habitable kind of an environment with a slightly blue like not a completely like a similar kind of sky but more or less very similar kind of Sky uh and every similar kind of around 24 hour 24 to 25 hours of a day everything is there and axial tilt exactly similar to the Earth's axial till very very close to that so it has got a very close neighbor like a very very good kind of a climate uh which like n6 uh minus 16 degrees that is some temperature that you get in Mars which many people can easily live in India in in in in a planet Earth so Mars and moon they are they can even combat which will be the first habited habitable kind of environment and then you have uh the asteroidal the asteroidal belt region uh but there are so many uh small uh like uh dwarf planets like Cirrus which have the capability to sustain human life in a kind of possible next stage which which


life in a kind of possible next stage which which planet uh serious Cirrus yes that's a part of our solar system only uh it's like part of the asteroidal belt it's the largest asteroid it's a spherical it's more or less like a dwarf planet but it's within our solar system yeah yes it's like for example after Mars you have an asteroidal belt inside that this is one of the planet one of the big asteroids one of the bigger big asteroid so it's currently designated dwarf planet or asteroid like that okay so that kind of those zeros and then Heroes so so many such uh dwarf uh these asteroids or dwarf planets can also sustain human life and that entire throttle belt is a completely mineral Rich because all kind of minerals which are required for sustaining human human life and also valuable assets for human beings like gold gold and then titanium then copper iron all this material that are required for constructing a spaceship see all these things are available in the


a spaceship see all these things are available in the asteroidal belt region so you will colonize basically ultimately you will be having human habitation in that area as well similarly Mars and then uh you have the moons of Jupiter like IO Europa ganymed Calisto these three four all the four planets are capable of sustaining uh humanly once you have achieved that kind of technological capability and you have uh some moons of Saturn that is Titan which is having even liquid nitrogen oceans all these things and this Europa have like a water ocean Etc so what I'm saying is maybe we are drifting from the question there's no drifting in podcasters like this only so what I'm saying is uh basically here the every civilization or every sentient beings will achieve certain level of maturity so that they will leave their home planet and start exploring their Stellar neighborhood okay so that stage is over and then they will go to the next stage where they start exploring the galactic uh that


stage where they start exploring the galactic uh that is the entire galaxy they will explore and at that stage because uh it is based on the statistical analysis the possibilities that there are minimum some 14 to 20 intelligent like systems in the uh in our our own Milky Way galaxy intelligent intelligence because of the uh the the habitable zones around this uh planets uh I mean on this at the Stellar the Stars which is part of the Milky Way galaxy system there are now currently people identify around 50 56 system such systems and our search for extraterrestrial intelligence is that kind of city and all these people are focusing on those systems to get some signals uh out of them so this is happening this is all uh already there in place and people are very seriously like considering this kind of things uh just like I mentioned like it's uh like percentage of aliens is and given thing it's not some a matter of speculation statistically it is the natural thing so uh ultimately what I'm saying is you


thing so uh ultimately what I'm saying is you have at least um more than a dozen of Intel systems that can produce a civilization which can advance to the next stage of Galactic exploration okay so when I say Galactic exploration naturally those intelligent beings will come to uh planet Earth because which we also is an intelligent being and um any kind of civilization that is I use the word civilization because again the same same word for aliens right so it's a extraterrestrial civilization can sense whether intelligence is there in a planet based on the electromagnetic signals that we release and we have been releasing it for uh more than uh 70 years so definitely uh those signals will reach them and they will be available person here we've been releasing them how through like satellite dishes because of the natural like the the moment you discover radio signals and we started radio transmission then we are automatically sending out radio signals from planet Earth okay and these radio signals will will never end it will keep on spreading to the


will never end it will keep on spreading to the like beyond the solar system with at the speed of light okay so this will be captured by any intelligent being and this they will aware that okay there is intelligent uh beings in planet Earth and they will come and seek so there's I'm coming back to that point because of which there is a kind of 90 I will always say probability so there is a 90 probability that some of the intelligent beings are on planet Earth watching us already already wow God bless you so thank you for being on the show that's it ladies and gentlemen no no I'm kidding I'm kidding do you like conversations like this do you like talking about extraterrestrial life yes uh so that is that was one of the area of interest for me and as you you just write like these are these are kind of such questions that took me to ISRO this is why I wanted to be part of a space research organization uh since the childhood like that I have two


organization uh since the childhood like that I have two passions one is this space space research planets and there is this our ancient Mahabharat Rama with Vedic thought Vedic so these two uh there was it was like constantly pulling me this way or that way maybe in childhood maybe it's the same passion actually yes it's a little Larger than Life thinking Vedic thought and space are linked for all you know yes yes uh there are uh like for example you see you can see um some kind of uh like descriptions in Mahabharata where the the Arjuna is made the Arjuna is the main main like he uh there is a kind of uh chapter in Mahabharata called Arjuna by gamana which is like Arjuna is going in the space space means it can be interpreted as like uh this upper atmosphere or it can be interpreted as outer space as well really so again you can see uh that kind of uh you know the there he the in that there it is mentioned there are large


the in that there it is mentioned there are large number of P minus moving around in the outer space I mean wherever the egg is going either upper atmosphere or the outer outer space he sees other other vimanas he's also he's in a Vimana like uh like driven by matali who is the chariator of Indra and Indra has invited Arjuna to developer so Arjuna is like from the Himalayas he he goes something like uh upper altitude now the so the all these vimanas are related to Upper altitude if you if you look at very closely I have a different theory about vimanas but there is another theory which is connected with the uh higher Technologies Okay so uh so I handle all these theories as a separate separate uh like uh possibilities because we are at the possibility level and what is the exact reality we have to I mean we have to go to go with the time machine go to the period of the pandavas to understand so I have currently these different uh


to understand so I have currently these different uh theories so one of the theories there is that there is a kind of intervention of it technological intervention during that period so that some of these Technologies which we uh only see in future somehow because of some reason the uh the ancient people got exposed to that that is the ancient alien Theory I have published one article in one of the magazines a UK based magazine about that so I have that line of research as uh one interesting part uh where I look at this possibility but how exactly it happened there are a lot of different theories uh because one of them I think I have seen in your show is that there is a kind of technological advancement in the past so that is one possibility but not need not be that is the only possibility because there are there is a possible of time leakage I think you uh I don't know whether you're aware of I have never heard this word before yeah that is like if somebody from the


word before yeah that is like if somebody from the future uh start because we are all having interest in understanding what is happening in Mahabharata drama and period what if in future somebody in the in the remote future like from the 23rd Century traveled into the Ramana Mahabharata period just because of curiosity then they will introduce some element of future into the past that is the timely case wow go on yeah so that is one for that is kind of possible so it need not be that uh that there is an ancient technology in the beginning because there are a lot of counter reasons that that for understanding that it is not there because technology is an incremental act kind of uh component like it's an incremental thing you mean it grows gradually it grows gradually so it's not like uh we are not so super intelligent than our ancient people it's not because we have inherited a long uh sequence of technological growth because of which you can use a mobile phone you will get navigation you


can use a mobile phone you will get navigation you Google uh voice will navigate navigate you that's how I came here it's something like a devatha uh like talking to you through voice telling where to go there's a Google map is all about so uh this uh this kind of Technology right it has it is growing incrementally but your future information the information or or technology in the future can leak can get leaked into the past so then uh see that is what moral is currently I think about some anomalous anomalies means we cannot explain it in using a natural logical uh methodology you cannot explain some of the things in Mahabharata so some of these anomalous things in the Mahabharata could be a kind of a time leak and this is one of the theory there is another theory of because there is an ambient presence of aliens here that is uh the the Extraterrestrial intelligence that is the intelligence in the our entire galaxy or even entire universe uh because whenever these people when they have


universe uh because whenever these people when they have capability to explore a Galaxy or an entire universe then naturally they will be present here as well that is inevitable you don't have to have any special devices to check and say that they are not there is also another thing because it will validate what you said but otherwise statistically mathematically there is a possibility that they are here so then they will be they may be here because a few few thousand years is not big big deal so they may be here during the whenever the pandavas or Rama was there so they may be here that is another possibility act this is like you have to consider this as a theory because I have alternate theories which I have put in my books so all these are different different possible theories but it matters because you're an ISRO scientist you know so you have an Outlook of science as well yes which is why my next question to you is to the scientist in you yeah is time travel scientifically possible


scientist in you yeah is time travel scientifically possible and if yes how and is this something you've thought about is time machine something you've thought about yes yeah uh so the answer for the first question that is a time travel scientifically possible yeah that is the kind of answer that comes from the general theory of relativity that uh Albert Einstein has like brought to us so uh basically um what it's uh what it tells to us is that the space that we call like that we experience right now like it has got three dimensions like length breadth and height so this floor if you look at it says length and breadth and the the height of the wall gives you that so we are accustomed to be in a 3D space so we assume that uh that the everything is normally three-dimensional that's what we normally feel uh but uh when you look at instance theory of relativity what it does is it considered time as a one of the uh like it's as similar almost similar to your length breadth and height as


similar almost similar to your length breadth and height as another dimension another dimension so uh many people find it very difficult to comprehend uh the the dimensionality in the entire concept of dimensionality is a very very difficult to comprehend so I normally give a kind of a mental exercise like for example uh if you if you look at a piece of paper uh and whatever you draw inside that piece of paper uh like you can draw a rectangle you can you can draw a house with uh like if you're an artist you can draw the house so if you feel like you have a kind of a depth inside that so assume that your 3D space has somehow got completely absorbed into a paper so once you have that that in your mental picture then you can assume that if you put a pencil as perpendicular to the paper then that can be considered as a fourth dimension so of course like when you look at the piece of paper uh you you will be see one of the dimension get compressed into the paper


see one of the dimension get compressed into the paper itself like uh if you're if you draw a rectangle you can see the length and breadth or aligning with the length and breadth of the paper but you are when you are drawing a house uh with with the full color shade Shadow everything so it's Full House in the like in a photograph of a house for example where you're seeing it from a diagonal angle correct so the the how the third dimension is actually uh you can say absorbed into the the paper itself that's what you are saying then you can concept less a kind of a fourth uh fourth dimension on the on that paper so that is how you can visualize the or comprehend the fourth dimension have you seen Interstellar the movie Yes yes so at the end of winter sort of the climax that they've shown is a good representation yeah it's the fourth dimension correct that you can actually move forward and backward on the timeline as well yeah right okay so for example this podcast that's


yeah right okay so for example this podcast that's happening now uh actually if someone had the capability of time travel they would be able to see the same 3D space but from a month ago when I was podcasting with a cricketer probably exactly yeah correct thinking correct correct okay so when you have in fourth dimension your body now you you you know human shape you are you are shaped like a human being like so but in the fourth dimension it's like a big snake your body will look like a snake uh as a four dimensional It's like because at the tail end of it uh you have your small baby uh you're born as a baby that will be your end end point like even go again further it will be a small as uh like single cellular psychot a single cell that is your tip of your lifeline and if you go uh to the other end you will see your dead body so between your dead body and your single cellular that's a psychotical form when you are born uh you


a psychotical form when you are born uh you have all your bodies that you have assumed in your life that all combined together it you will have a four dimensional lifeline and uh the way to look at it something like a big snake uh they that the it's a kind of your body is like a four-dimensional snake and this entire snake body of the four-dimensional snake body is in the time axis so you have uh like a part of it is in the past part of it in the future so this is your structure of your Universe you you know I just want to uh mention one thing this is kind of little difficult even for me to comprehend though I have an understanding of what you're saying there's a lot of viewers who may not even have understood this but the key to be noted here is that there are dimensions which are difficult to perceive Beyond human understanding correct this is one of those conversations that it's just a difficult concept to understand correct so uh once you


difficult concept to understand correct so uh once you understand this uh see going to going and seeing your past life is nothing but like because you have millions of bodies in your four-dimensional timeline so you are just uh like uh using some kind of a scientific methodology you are taking one of the body and going back to your past life body or your future life body like that regular human life you can only perceive the three dimensions yes but this is some higher understanding maybe correct correct okay go on so this is the overall uh Einstein's uh basic principles of uh like uh um which which actually give out scientifically or mathematically give out the possibility of a time travel so the general theory of relativity doesn't prohibit the time travel because you can move backward and forward in time that is go to past and future just like you go left and right uh forward and backward or upward and downwards you can go past and future so all set that is everything fine but there are certain uh kind of uh laws


fine but there are certain uh kind of uh laws which actually can uh create some kind of interference with your full freedom in your fourth dimension some of them are like entropy that is the principle of entropy which is like which insists that uh yeah any kind of activity uh cannot be reversed backwards like for example uh if you're if you have a glass if you throw it on the floor it breaks into multiple pieces so breakage is natural but there is theoretically or maybe probably still it is not very easy for all the different pieces of your broken uh like glass to assemble back so this is one one problem that uh affects the uh this principle of free full freedom of time travel so whenever you device a kind of a machine so they have to consider this kind of thing another thing is cost effect relationships so all the effects are result of a certain set of causes maybe is it something like uh you you are actually the son of your parents so your two two of your parents your father and


so your two two of your parents your father and mother is the cause that created you so there is a kind of a chain of cost uh cause and effect relationship that is in play so some of see for example there are certain actions it's called the Paradox time travel Paradox grandfather Paradox so many names it is that if if you go back in time and kill your grandfather and do you even exist correct so there are certain such questions so these are the two cost effect relationships and the entropy are the two main things that actually curtail your freedom to travel backward in past future there is no problem because it allows the costs affected no impact on the cost effect no impact on the entropy so you can travel into the future but traveling into the past there are these two problems so scientists have so this is all Beyond whatever Einstein has thought so these are all happened in the last century after Einstein has gone people have thought about of course after that quantum theory has expanded little more with the


after that quantum theory has expanded little more with the possibility of time travel in using quantum mechanics everything has been thought about and uh when that that is the player you you get the black hole concept like black hole actually wraps your space time so that it creates a hole which have four dimensional holes into which you can travel and naturally you can get into a place which is like space area in space time which is past or future yeah I I just want to explain it in a small way take a paper you draw One Dot at one corner of the paper on the opposite end as in on the opposite corner you draw another dot when you join those two dots by folding the paper that's how a black hole Works in space time okay exactly okay so uh you have a lot of thought experiments which can like explain this concept very nicely like whatever you mentioned okay so these are all these are all uh like theoretical advancement happen both in the theory of relativity and quantum theory uh so uh


theory of relativity and quantum theory uh so uh then this Stephen Hawkings he has introduced a lot of Concepts into that uh which allows or disallows you the going into the past in in your time axis so the whatever recently or maybe not very recent but at least two two decades old Theory I mean it's starting from 2000 1990s we have got a theory of Multiverse you may be heard of it maybe we might have done some podcast on it so uh when you have a Multiverse it's something like this grandfather Paradox itself will not be a problem and cause effect relationship uh or entropy all these kind of problems will not be uh creating any hindrance in the time travel because according to the Multiverse theory if you go back in time you're actually sprouting out a new universe itself so whatever happens in that timeline is exclusive to that timeline whatever happens in your original timeline is just how it is correct so uh when you are moving into a past you are not moving into your own


into a past you are not moving into your own Universal past but it is a parallel Universal past you are moving because of which you are not it's completely a new territory okay whatever you do there it will create a kind of a new chain of events and that universe will be see the only problem that happens is that there were infinite number of universes infinite number of copies of yourself infinite number of grandfathers copies of your grandfather copies but you happen to go into a reach the universe uh where you kill the grandfather so that you are not born in that universe but you are still there so the grandfather Paradox is uh eliminated Okay so uh time travel you have to segregate separate into two categories traveling into future traveling into past if you want to travel into past then you have to accept that there are multiple universes and that is where we are standing right now the world of science the world of science is standing okay I know that science and scientific discovery eventually lead


I know that science and scientific discovery eventually lead to engineering correct yeah has there been any engineering that's happened in the direction of time travel or has anyone attempted anything um officially like nobody Israel is not attempting that I can clearly say okay but there are certain uh interesting organizations which who are trying that but I think currently we are little bit premature in trying for the time travel but there is another interesting concept I mean it has been around for only four five years so it's not very much came into the literature uh is that instead of sending a person into the future you can transmit information into the future into the future see the future the time travel to future is not having any theoretical problem it's only a technological problem but technology technology is not available right now to send a actual human being into future what would be required ah so here what it what is they are suggesting is that of course this is requires a kind of cooperation with the future people but assuming that there is a


with the future people but assuming that there is a kind of people who are ready to receive your information what you can do is your entire human body is nothing but a lot of information like for example all your tissue cell then DNA so if you if you transmit to all the information in your DNA and if there is a technology to take that information and recreate your DNA then of course your body characteristics can be uh transmitted similarly mental so you have information and coordinating in your DNA and also in your brain so information insured your brain is nothing but your memories your thoughts Etc so it's a different kind of information different than genetic information so your brain information and genetic information has a two main information that defines you who you are I mean so when all this information goes and it gets assembled back exactly like this you become like you just get transposed to another place you're basically taking tiny bits of yourself and throwing it into the future yes my question is what is the device to