back to it you will come back to it you will come back to it for no other reason rather than because when you it's it's the simple fact that there are some books that are meant to be read on uh tablet format which you can read on tablet format and there are some books that can only be read in book format that you will never read in tablet format because I have read both I read on my tablet like obsessively continuously absolutely totally 90 of like all a lot of the time in fact I don't buy that many books because I find it easier to just carry 300 books with me on a one you know small little device rather than you know to actually buy a book I find it very convenient but the convenience factor is there but there are certain books that you need to read in book format especially the heavier stuff I don't think you can read uh Game of Thrones Game of Thrones I don't think you can read Game of Thrones in tablet format because it'll bore you


of Thrones in tablet format because it'll bore you silly you need book format for that you know so these kind of books you require to read in Black Turn the Page you know read properly what what subjects do you read what like do you read like fiction primarily I read fiction I read for fun I don't read to improve my mind my mind is fine the way it is I don't read for advice I'm fine with no advice fiction reading improves your creativity Bible naturally cool so you are reading for your mind technically and you read for reading improves everything I do I believe that I'm never lonely if I have a book right do you want to recommend any of your like top three the top five best books just recently I picked up one of them of absolutely beautifully written book that on Earth were briefly gorgeous I don't know the tri I can't pronounce the name of the author because it's some it's very odd name but yes on Earth We're briefly gorgeous


name but yes on Earth We're briefly gorgeous and it's one of the most uh beautifully written books that I have seen in a very long time so it's it's about it's it's a boy who's written a letters to his illiterate mother and it sounds very like it sounds very like esoteric and it sounds like oh my God you know I don't know it's not going to be huh artsy and it's not going to be interesting but it's his writing just brings tears to my eyes it's so well written it's so well written because it's therapeutic I don't know whether it's therapeutic but you you see the way he writes about his life is is beautifully written like the points that you would think would probably scar him are not what he obsessive obsesses about and not what he thinks have hurt him so it's very interesting to see a completely different perspective okay okay what have you forgot about podcasting as a format now ah it's very interesting and uh I think that it gives


very interesting and uh I think that it gives you more leeway probably than a regular interview would you have the time and the space to say what you want to and maybe edit it a little better I think this is one of the rare conversations we won't need to edit because you're good good I'm not I'm not just [Music] okay wait I'll give you another unrelated compliment it's not a compliment it's like a question okay I don't know a non-complementary way to ask this non-complementary it's not a word you know what I mean I don't know yes without it sounding like a compliment thanks better yes okay you can but you may not no please please okay fine okay uh what have you done for like your skincare routine attention is it like Bengali genetics or you're doing some Gucci Gucci it's not a regular media interview like I don't want controversy I want soul I you know I really think that like you said I think you have to work on your inners


said I think you have to work on your inners as well as your routers so yes I work on my outers as well um but I also think that it has to do with your inner I feel like after 40 whatever you do in life it doesn't matter because your inners are gonna come out on your face they are going to be their chap like understand I mean if you are means bitter but there's a lot more than just bitterness it's just that you know lots of people regardless of whether they've achieved success or not are not necessarily comfortable with their life or where they are at that point in time or maybe they regret their choices I'm just saying that all of that somewhere down the line if you don't deal with it either I'm your 40 it comes out on your face so yes I have worked on my inners and my Outdoors as far as my outers are concerned I do all the things that uh you know you're supposed to I drink a lot of water I


supposed to I drink a lot of water I Dr that's the one Mantra that I live by and uh I think that that's really necessary for good skin as well so I drink a lot of water I drink I'd sleep my good eight ten hours at night I sleep 10 hours a night can you do that no hence and therefore you will be coming back to me for tips on the show because you had so much fun this one time we're almost near the end though I don't want to and I want I want to get to know everything but I get I get that you probably have places to be on a Sunday afternoon I mean can you imagine that but this is a nice fun memorable Sunday for you already yes right it is definitely uh I have to ask you a little bit about the film industry every single question I ask you is very data oriented because when you do YouTube for a living you're releasing so many videos you get a lot of analytics from YouTube you get data about everything so every


analytics from YouTube you get data about everything so every single question I've asked you is actually data and my skincare routine as well that's gonna be the title of your video yes yes I'm sorry but that's what it is nothing to do with My Soul it has to do with my skin that's covering my soul something like that something like that what's the best and worst aspect of Bollywood what's the best and worst aspect of it I don't know uh I think the best part about it is that uh at least I feel like this I don't know how everybody else feels but I have some that all the people that I've worked with in the film industry till today I would say all of them are they are people that somehow down the line whatever happens you've spent these 300 days with them or 100 Days with them or 150 days with them so whether you talk to them or you don't talk to them at the end of the day they will always have uh they'll always be your friends


they will always have uh they'll always be your friends they will not be acquaintances because art is also emotional no not only that I'm telling you trust me from the dop to the camera to the uh you know to the light men to to everybody that you've interacted with on a set somewhere down the line because you've spent that huge amount of time with them they become people that you are it's it's a definition that you would give your friends that you are familiar with I can't put my feet up on the sofa and sit with them I can say what I want with them and that gives you an amazing amount I may not meet them ever again in my life or I may meet them just socially where I am dressed up and they are dressed up and we are all standing around and you know talking to other people but at the same time I know for a fact that if I want to take my shoes off and if I want to sit on the floor also I


if I want to sit on the floor also I can sit down and have a chat and you know talk about it or you know if you know if I'm hungry and he's somebody's got a plate over there I'll be like listen I'm hungry just pass me your plate now you're hungry so I am actually my lunch it's a Sunday afternoon and I am hungry and it's almost my lunch time if we knew you're gonna come hungry really nice food for food free nice food but you didn't think that when you were asking me to come at 12 o'clock that you should have made this really nice job for me anyways as a form of generosity as a form of Hosting no because someone is why am I enjoying this I don't even know I guess my egos has died down in life but but I did compliment you and I said you have a beautiful house right thank you I feel like uh I'm Shahrukh Khan from the first half of that playing basketball against you


from the first half of that playing basketball against you or something okay then what's the worst part you want to answer the question so somewhere down the line the worst part I think is Vanity vans today though they're very their comfort zones and they are uh whatever like like you say the pros and cons of it that that we have instead of having 100 people we have 300 people on set who have these micro responsibilities and you know have about 15 people in between we don't sit on the same table and eat food everybody goes to their own personal Vans and eats and um the sense of camaraderie is much less now than uh it was before so yeah that's probably the worst I would say very well thought out answer thank you I've answered it before FYI because because people are always looking for headlines yeah I'm telling you this is I know it's going to be my skincare routine it is a plan if we if we do direct promotions people get pissed off like this will be


promotions people get pissed off like this will be a part of the podcast from the other podcast so uh I have to bring out the soul I've just figured I think people know by this there were two extremes of emotion and this emotion is such a good skincare routine films there will be a Radiance as ranveer says to your soul your soul will be free anything else I think I think I am quitting this podcasting career turning this into the Kajol show that was great whoa this is too much personality for one episode really yeah that's another compliment just like a subtle yeah I'm just seeing how you're sliding them in I'm watching you can't help it can't help but it just it just Falls right out of me but writing doesn't you write for a living you just know what to say which is great for your dating life but uh you know sometimes you take on SMS [Laughter] when you're a writer you just know good responses that's the truth you have any


just know good responses that's the truth you have any dating advice none thank you so much I've been married for too long but no but any general dating advice generally I have no dating advice like I said I think you should really take care of your skincare routine I think that'll help with your dating advice drink lots of water think clean thoughts pure thoughts go watch my movie cry a lot all that the last thing I'll tell you in today's show this is me giving you some digital dope cool I'll tell you why because I've just realized growth in 2022 in any industry be it Bollywood be it shampoos be it whatever is data driven but love if you have access to data you can create a huge money making business you can create a film that will do it like data now dictates too much and it didn't earlier okay it's one because so much Digital Data is available do because algorithms are controlling our life and Mind Correct you agree with that okay uh algorithms and our data


you agree with that okay uh algorithms and our data on YouTube tells us that the audience is in the 2020s post covered okay are damn drawn towards dark content okay at least it should be something related to crime or the occult little deeper than like just the surface like even if we're talking spirituality I can't we can't just talk about meditation you have to go like 10 layers deep and talk which wasn't the case during the pandemic also Pele also so I feel times are getting really dark that's why we saw kantara being such a cultural phenomenon that movie has the reason I know the cultural phenomenon is because I'm not into the world of films as a consumer because of my job YouTube I want to be concerned with this world but when chatter about films reaches me I know it's become culturally important okay like we had this guy on the show who's a very high level practicing tantric he brought up kandara oh and he said that the reason


up kandara oh and he said that the reason that movies worked is because they've shown some really genuine tantric stuff in it which the mass is connected with all this stuff happens in rural India uh but even rural India is now drawn towards Darkness it makes me question algorithms it makes me question what happened to the human mind it gives me a lot of Direction as a YouTuber I know what I'm going to be doing in terms of content for the next one or two years and this whole narrative now about whatever is happening in the film industry oh why are like films my reading of it as a YouTube and I might be entirely wrong okay but my data driven reading is that the content is not dark enough that's why it's not like people want to see what this is because there was a ghost element and there was that brand Etc yeah but I don't know why filmmakers are not picking up on that uh even to some degree I would argue that


that uh even to some degree I would argue that brahmasa had some little darker deeper element of course definitely um I know the kind of work ayan's putting and the friend he's told me a lot of details about his thought process and he was thinking 10 layers deep that's why it also worked with the masses and I feel generally the industry is missing out on that angle the audience has become so smart it's become difficult for us as a youtubing team to even keep up we'd be able to because we have a big team studying data mining all the right questions and ensuring that we consciously create darker content right but I think the film industry because it's so um well established it's not being able to be agile enough and pick up on this maybe in the next one or two years we'll see it picking up on it I think honestly the film industry like you said takes time and everything that is being released in this one year was already in the works five


in this one year was already in the works five years before it got delay because exactly so everything that you're if you're talking about data if you're talking about we also have the same data that you do it's not that we don't have the same data or when it's not that we are not taking the same decisions as you or the same there are few I'll tell you I'm so sorry I'm interrupting you know please I'm just making my point I'm able to talk very openly to you it's almost as if though your your Legend of your space you know and I really look up I understand now go on us okay uh I can't talk at this level to everyone from the film industry like yo at least open and receptive to listening when I interact with the Lord I say they're a little closed in the systems I would put Karan johar in the same bracket as you like every time he's very open to listen that's why I think he survived uh but now go on


I think he survived uh but now go on that's that I think the logic here is the film industry needs to just take input from the digital industry and see what's happening in terms of Trends and all that you know I think that what I'm trying to tell you is that we are what I'm trying to tell you is that the question that you're asking has already been answered and answered in a big way because if you look at the future content that's coming up the future films that are coming up that are going to be released later they've all taken all this into consideration they are taking all this into consideration it's just that what you're watching in this year was in the making five years back it was not one year back and it was not six months back there is no film that has been made in the last six months that is suddenly released now it is all it takes that much time to make a film to release it's all been in the making for five years so yes what


been in the making for five years so yes what you're saying I agree with you I agree with you up to a certain extent yes you are statistic driven you are data driven and I would say so is the film industry because honestly we have to be we don't have a choice in the matter there's just too much money on the line for us to not take into a consideration everything that we are being given we'll take heart pair mood job we'll take right now and we'll take it all into into consideration so like I said this is the film industry has always gone through I would say ups and downs and but the point is that we've always come out of it we are still in industry and we will continue to be an industry and we will evolve and we will grow that is the USP of the film industry I would say that is just survived for this long so therefore is it and you cannot survive for so long if you do not have the ability to change and


if you do not have the ability to change and grow yeah yeah uh it's why the film industry is where it is culturally also absolutely I'm so sorry I just was trying to have a discussion and have a deeper understanding because because our access is only data and what we see from comment sections and YouTube is a bubble in itself absolutely I totally agree and yes you don't have to apologize for a question that you need to ask or but I'm just telling you that it is an it's a how to put this in the nicest way possible I think that everybody looks at the film industry and sees Here and Now you're only seeing one film that is released you're only seeing uh you know you're you're seeing the here and now you're not realizing that this is all it takes a hell of a long time to talk to write to put it into place to put everything together to actually even shoot it it takes time post-production takes time you know everything takes time it's not instant it may


you know everything takes time it's not instant it may not take that long I'm sure it takes you at least what three four days to put everything together to splice this one hour interview together which you don't even have to do in different shots in different spaces you don't have to write it nothing so imagine if you had to do that on that big scale it would take that time and especially if you're putting in that much amount of money everybody's you know you're going to take that much amount of time to consider it so I'm just saying that like I said don't be so hard so don't be such a hurry to judge it as is right now wait but there's going to be a bounce back of course of course no two ways about it but do you agree with the dark aspect I'd agree about the dark aspect because I also think that the darker aspect has a lot again to do with these two years of not having anything else it is also got to do with the software that you


is also got to do with the software that you have been watching on all the Ott platforms when you had nothing else to watch what are you going to watch so they're watching everything I mean we will go to the theater and we will watch whatever we have to watch that we really want to watch I want to go every Friday to watch a film whatever happens whatever is released I will go every Friday now suddenly you've gone to the habit of not going out every Friday you want to sit at home and you are sitting over there on your tablet and whatever whatever and you're watching now this isn't this is a habit that you have formed for I remember the first time I think I went for a from I went for an event I must have been an event for The BMC or something I don't even remember what it was and it was right in the middle of covet and I think I actually started like having a mini panic attack in the middle of it because I realized there are 20


the middle of it because I realized there are 20 people around me there are 30 people around me I don't have a mask on what's going to happen you know I felt like that that was the first time that you know you actually went out and it was the middle of you know I think towards the end of 2020 and I felt like that so if I felt like that as a regular normal person imagine going to the theater so people are battling it and people are getting back to going to the theater thank you so much for drishyam 2 by the way and uh so you know thank you for coming back to the theaters and watching movies and I promise you we'll come back with better and nicer and cooler content [Laughter] because in this one you brought all the lights oh thank you so much but I'm not shooting without these lights out so I just want to tell you that uh Kajol thank you for lighting up our lives this was a great conversation thank you my


our lives this was a great conversation thank you my pleasure to be here really no I'm lying did you enjoy yourself I did I did I have to say I did we got to have you on the show again next time yes definitely everybody go on salaam venky keep cheering the light of our lives in the house yep thank you thank you thank you thank you so much sending you lots of love thank you thank you so much my pleasure awesome that's it that was the episode for today if you were watching the video version of this podcast you would have noticed that I was breaking out into sweats honestly because not every conversation is as easy as all the others seem to be this one was a little difficult and I don't blame Kajol for this I don't blame myself on the day for this it's just the nature of the film industry in general imagine a reality where tens of thousands of people are trying to talk to you trying to get something from you every


talk to you trying to get something from you every day you tend to be a little guarded so if I notice that a guest of mine is guarded on the show it takes me time to actually break the ice I'm glad that you guys got to see a live icebreaking session I'm very glad to have connected with this icon in this manner we recorded it live I'm not so glad that my outfit got a little spoiled but that's okay I guess this is a part of the journey when you're trying to create a podcast in the long term this one wasn't an easy conversation this one wasn't an easy chat but I'm looking forward to having Kajol again on the runway show make sure you go watch salaam wenki in theaters and make sure you follow TRS on Spotify every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world we'll be back very soon [Music]


it was looking like a movie scene he stripped her naked and then some ayatay was done and then some holy water has been thrown on her her and then they started beating and she is shouting when she is screaming out of the pain and people are shouting and cherishing the name of the god saying that the Satan is going out from her body no bro it's not you are beating a 16 year old kid stripping her naked hanging her from a ceiling 300 400 people are being witnessing this they are watching it happening it's not Shields screaming out of pain she's screaming out of the shame that you are bringing it to her it's not exorcism I'm sorry if if this is how exorcisms happen this is not an exorcism in these 17 years of my Exile you know what I've realized God is there ghost is there they are both there only us we people we are not trying we are trying to give them shapes and sizes we are trying to


to give them shapes and sizes we are trying to give them some sort of identity on the runway show we keep bringing you horror specials this is another horror special from someone who some would say is a skeptic when it comes to ghosts or horror or the occult in general is someone who's dedicated his life to the Paranormal and he's not a complete skeptic he likes proving narratives wrong but that doesn't mean that he doesn't believe in the Paranormal jalani's work can be found on YouTube it can be found on podcasts so if you know who he is this one's a deep dive into his mind and if you don't know who jayalani is he's a paranormal investigator I will definitely tell you that this is a man with stories and I hope that you enjoy this conversation with someone that some people might consider a skeptic I consider a human living through life acknowledging the Paranormal and its possible existence he's not a skeptic for me he is a paranormal


a skeptic for me he is a paranormal investigator in its truest sense this is jayalani's Outlook broken down for more episodes just like this make sure you follow the runway show on Spotify with a Spotify exclusive every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world this is jayalani on the renby show [Music] [Music] jayalani brother welcome to the runway show thank you so much ranvi thank you for having me here it's a pleasure to be here how's it going all well all ghosts are behind me wow um man we were looking for people who could speak about these kind of topics because it's something that listeners love hearing um let's begin with a heavy question at the top straight away let's let's go for it which is that uh what has been the one single most intense experience you have had in this whole journey of paranormal investigation I've been called to witness and exorcism uh in in a small place called maner it


uh in in a small place called maner it is near Patna in Bihar and uh I saw this 16 17 year old girl uh getting exercised by a few people who claimed themselves to having Supernatural powers and they can make it easy for her uh when I witnessed that particular exorcism that is something that I can never forget because uh they hanged this girl from the ceiling they made her stripped naked and then they started beating her from this blooms and the sticks and slaps and whatnot again can you describe it a little more in terms of what was she like before the exhaust system well when uh I I I got a call from her brother he's and he told me that Jay if you if you want to witness a true exorcism because you say possessions don't happen uh you should come here so I said fine I would definitely would love to join and I was in in Delhi at that moment and Patna is another Hometown to me so it was very easy


is another Hometown to me so it was very easy for me to travel I went and uh Manila the the place that I'm talking about it is around 60 kilometers from Patna so I took my car went to uh drove down to this place and I met this girl in the evening I would not name it uh in the evening around 8 8 30. So I entered inside the home it was an old home and uh he took me to her room where she was tied with this uh you know what do you call it Katya and she was tired and she was badly bruised uh there was bruises on her face there were bruises on her shoulder and she was a little girl like 16 17. tied to a bed [ __ ] and the room was in a very pathetic condition it was smelly it was very bad and I went to her and I I tried to speak to her and she uttered few words and uh she she tried to say that I am good you know so


tried to say that I am good you know so fine I I went to her brother and what is this why are you guys doing this let's just say this is the matter of something very religious so let's should not get into it let's not touch it let the elders decide of the family whatever they they want to do when is the exorcism is happening this is happening tomorrow night so can you stop it you know when exorcism in India especially in a small village of that kind happens no one enters no one dares to enter or say even a word because there are thousands of people who are believing in it no police no law situation nothing can stop it if it is meant to happen it will happen and that will happen too you know in in the evening we reached around this place where she was when I saw her for the first time she entered people took her inside they hanged tied her hands and then hanged her from the ceiling and then


and then hanged her from the ceiling and then some Islamic things the Tantra Manta ritual that started happening I don't know what they call it in I guess ayat or something like that so and then this this person who was supposedly the leader of The Exorcist group the first thing he did that he stripped her naked in front of it like around 300 400 people there surrounding this entire thing everyone is having a fire in their hands for someone who's having candles Noble no electricity was used I don't know why no electricity was used it was looking like a movie scene you know and he stripped her naked and then some ayat was done and then some holy water has been thrown on her her and then they started beating and she is shouting when she is screaming out of the pain and people are shouting and cherishing the name of the god saying that the Satan is going out from her body no bro it's not you are beating a 16 year old kid stripping


you are beating a 16 year old kid stripping her naked you know hanging her from a ceiling 300 400 people are being you know witnessing this they're watching it happening it's not Shields screaming out of pain she's screaming out of the shame that you are bringing it to her it's not exorcism I'm sorry if if this is how exorcisms happen this is not an exorcism so you know when I witnessed that of course I couldn't do anything I went and I tried to look next morning I went and tried to speak to local police and administration they said I'm sorry we cannot do anything it's a matter of belief and the belief of a huge community that stays there things can be very volunteer if you try to interfere in a matter like this so you know these there are kind of experiences that will always remain with me until I die because what I have seen will never go out of my mind so my experiences are like that they are not


mind so my experiences are like that they are not good or bad or best it's just a few experience that I can never forget um what happened to the girl she is still alive fortunately or I would say unfortunately this case is of around 2017. it's been around five years but she is not what she was she speaks she does not speak she's very silent people have tried to married her off but she don't uh she has tried according to her brother I still speak to her brother sometimes just to get an update she has tried committing suicides for a couple of times somehow she managed but it might be a bad thing or a sad thing to say but I'll tell you now she won't live long somehow or the other she will pass away not because of the ghosts not because of Any paranormal entity but because of the kind of bruises this human have given to her either she commits suicide either she dies of any anything else but she won't live long and somehow


anything else but she won't live long and somehow she knows it she knows it that is why she's like she has lost all the interest in life any kind of Interest she eats she does three things only she eats she goes to the farm to work she comes back she eats and she she sleeps that's all that is all her life have been so far what does a Paranormal Investigator do uh there are two versions of it okay one the world believes and one people like me or Joe Nichol we believe we are here to tell the realities to people to make the world a better place I'll give you an example the first paranormal investigators in the entire world what I believe was illuminatis when it happened in 1776 the Illuminati was find founded by Adam Bishop in Germany he had three primary things to do number one to reduce the forced religiousness over the people number two people who are practicing Black Magic Blind Faith and superstitions to stop them and number three


Faith and superstitions to stop them and number three two question to the people who are sitting in the authorities that why this is happening so for me uh paranormal the first paranormal investigators were those people Adam Bishop although it's a crazy thing that we have funny stories about the illuminatis why don't you tell us a little bit about the Illuminati well Illuminati yes was a group that was built by Adam's shot in Germany out of a church but all these secret society we have and this is uh Illuminati controls everything that happens in the world and all those stuff I do not believe it that is true illuminatis have been a people who have really worked hard for the people on ground they have helped a lot of people during the American Civil War illumine the people uh group people from the group of illuminatis they have come really on ground you know while businessmen from America America they were trying to create Ouija boards as the patents they were trying to make it as


as the patents they were trying to make it as a as a something that is commercial they were selling the Ouija boards because at that time people especially Americans we're going through a very emotional damage they were losing people this was the time when people were having 12 12 kids in the families because the loss rate was so high during the American Civil War so very less people know that uh Illuminati's have really worked on the grounds to cut down the Blind Faith and superstitions and everything that they could do at that time where do you think this narrative about secret society and all comes into play do you think this is a religious propaganda this is what I believe uh religious propaganda won yes uh and to what I believe that see we we as humans we cannot stay without we cannot live without stories we have to keep making stories just to Keep Us Alive that is how we function you know I I I always say that everything in this world is Mortal except stories only stories are immortal even


is Mortal except stories only stories are immortal even if there will be no Earth there will be stories of Earth on the other planet wow you know so we have to keep making stories in order to make us feel that we are alive new stories are born every single second hmm so what I believe that stories of illuminatis have been made someone has said something and then someone picked out of it something and then another version is created uh but what I believe also the third whatever I have read and I've gone through that that there were people who wanted to stop illuminatis because illuminatis were the people who were directly harming the business of Blind Faith they were directly harming it especially businesses of Ouija boards 1898 was the first time when the patent of Ouija boards was registered until this date it is a multi-million business especially which are both kids you know you go to USA you go to uh countries like land cities like London or anywhere else you will find kids are playing with Ouija boards


you will find kids are playing with Ouija boards hmm and one Ouija board it cost you around a good hundred dollars and there have been a businesses of blind faith in the entire world not only in India especially what I believe that Americans they are more into Blind Faith okay they have their own certain rules of it but they are more into it um so these business Giants have tried to stop Illuminati they did not stop so they made stories that is making them a part of it right before we started you spoke about some black magic experience yeah to me are you comfortable sharing it yes I am uh firstly what is black magic and you're a person who's traveled the world so I'm sure you've encountered some aspects of black magic even abroad uh I'm asking about black magic in general do you believe that magic exists because people say that magic exists for those who believe that it does the first time when I saw black magic happening was in a ghat near


black magic happening was in a ghat near Varanasi you know and uh what I believe that there's a lot of people who believed in it they spent like good amount of money what did you see I saw someone performing some sort of black magic that is helping them come out of their money issues but what was the black magic it was uh a typical ritual surrounded by skulls and everything and there was a guy who was just performing all these things for me it was I at that time I had no depth idea about it I'm just standing and looking at things and it looks like movies no it looked like movie scene to me where this guy is performing all these things where you have Sindhu you have uh flowers you have candles and then skull everything is red and this guy is just covered with red Sindhu entirely and there are two people who are sitting just like this and this guy is chanting some mantras and all that and this is what is happening


and all that and this is what is happening this this went around 20-25 minutes and then this guy suddenly stands up and he says that find your work will be done you're very soon out of our own business this was my first encounter with actual black magic when I'm looking at it you know and all those people who don't know all sorts of black magic it happens the opposite side of manikarnika ghatan Varanasi the other side of Ganga the opposite side yeah the other side of Anga the other bank so it's and you will find many people there for people who have come for it and for people who are doing it and it happens only at night or throughout the day anytime you want okay only not during the uh the rains but it is happening most of the times the best time would be like from December and January yeah and there are different kind of packages they deal with like if you have a small penis fine it will they'll do the job a small


fine it will they'll do the job a small penis yeah they'll do the job if you are not rich it'll stretch out yeah yeah a lot of things that are happening and then if you are like someone who is not rich and wants to be rich not good in studies breakups they have problems uh solutions for everything that you go through in life do you think any of these guys are real no not even not even one you've gone and like had a conversation conversation once I'll tell you a story about it I got to know about this guy who is saying that you know by using some sort of black magic I can end anyone's life like setting miles away so this sounds very interesting this is a new challenge that I've come come up with so me becoming becoming dhirendra Kumar so any dhirendra who is listening to it I'm not becoming you I just picked out a random name you know I am I I have become virendra Kumar went to Varanasi I have


virendra Kumar went to Varanasi I have many relatives and Varanasi so I I know the Varanasi thing really well inside out so I went around 11 o'clock met these people this is this this one guy who is troubling troubling me very much who is it and his name is jayalani you know he's like after my career and everything can you do something he asked me 25 000 so done when should I come come tomorrow the next day I went there now there's uh there's a ritual that needs to be performed where I have to be naked and the other two people who are into the ritual they also will they will be naked it's all three of them will be naked and there will be three four three or four more people who will be arranging the stuff all tantras mantras all sorts of flowers Hindus skulls uh bones whatever it's needed I said this looks very interesting but I cannot so I'm sorry I cannot be naked you have to be okay at least


cannot be naked you have to be okay at least give me my hand over here they say fine okay have it this ritual happened around over for one and a half hours they first make me do some mantras chanting and all that and then they gave me this uh a bone shaped sort of bowel you know and they told me that go have water from the ganga for like 21 times you know and put it here and then they had some blood of some animal so they covered me with the blood they made me uh take a bath on it and all that stuff it is it is like a movie scene it's totally a movie scene and I am dude just intentionally doing it whatever they are saying it not even one wrong move I did not want to give them an opportunity that you you did not do this correctly and I'm and there's the one guy who's a leader of the group he's sitting around 10 meters ahead far from what is happening and he's having his


far from what is happening and he's having his own drinks and everything he's very sorted on that note for one one and a half hour it goes so find your work will be done in next three days and it's been around three years I'm here alive sitting in front of like you did a ritual to kill yourself wow okay and I've taken more risks like that and with the same results with the same result but nothing happened uh heard about vashikaran so vashikaran is um I don't know what to say the vashikaran is is something where you can have your dream girl you know just you perform these black magic and you can have your dream girl or a dream boy you know must must have seen a lot of ads on Indian newspaper social media and Allah and all that stuff and I'll tell you a shocking fact about them I have the phone recording of one such person although I have been there I've also mentioned it in my podcast multiple times so I have become


in my podcast multiple times so I have become a guy who is 20 to 23 years old and just want to have my favorite girl in my life I reached out to this guy and said Baba let's do the vashikaran thing he said it will start from 5100 and goes for like 75 000 which package do you want so what is the differentiation between the packages you know from five thousand my new chances to 75 100 chance so let's go for 75 000 because I I just love her you know I I just don't want to see her go so please make it happen the conversation begins begins I sent him some money he started he wanted a picture of the girl I sent one of my friends picture she's the one around of course up with her permission and all that stuff started happening and you know what he advises me at the end of the ritual he says and can I say that in Hindi because it will make no sense he says foreign foreign and then this


make no sense he says foreign foreign and then this guy's Best Line comes up do it by hook or crook make her drink something you know today's time there's a lot of things that are available in the market so this guy is telling me to rape her directly and it's not me thousands of Indian youth from the small cities or people like them they get into these traps hmm and to your surprise many rapes happens because of this yeah it's why you shouldn't be a blind believer in anything related to the occult and I'm I'm someone who loves learning more about the occult I love this topic but you need to know where to check yourself also and and face the ground reality I think that's what you're trying to do through your work that's what I'm trying to do what still surprises me is that you're not completely a skeptic no because anyone who hears this conversation will think you're like almost 100 skeptic but then you're not I'm not I'm focused


but then you're not I'm not I'm focused on the 20 which makes you an unskeptic I am not because you know the experiences that I've already told you that makes me believe that there is something that is beyond my knowledge okay and I'm open to have it are you familiar with topics like the astral world I am special projections and other things I have had my own say on it I mean on read on it but uh for me the most Prime positive power is is someone whom we call God you know so I just have my faith and and uh interestingly I do not have a figure of of God in my head have you been to bhangarh I am 17 seven eight times would you like to describe it a little bit because it's supposed to be India's most haunted place yeah it is it is and you you feel it's haunted yeah it is let's talk about it is haunted by people humans have haunting it so badly that it is now is the most most commercial


badly that it is now is the most most commercial haunted location of India thousands of people go every day they step inside they get disappointed they come back and they say we will never go again you know because there's nothing in bhangar it is not a fort or something you should have realized it go check the history people first it is not a fort it is a structure that was built for a queen and the King made it just to you know to go for huntings and other things the people that they say bhangar was uh the capital of Rajasthan yes it was but bhangar Fort was not the operating area the entire region called bhangarh at that time now there's only a fort that you see have you traveled all over the world where you've encountered things and again I'm asking you about the 20 of you which is a Believer yeah uh because that's honestly what listeners also want to listen to like I think your point about all these things mainly not being real has come


about all these things mainly not being real has come across people have understood it but you're not completely a skeptic have you had experiences abroad which again push you towards being a believer I was in Uruguay the capital is Montevideo and there's a local paranormal investigation group that operates the name of the guy is Gustavo so Gustavo came to meet me when he got to know that I am there he came to meet me in my hotel it was a lovely meeting and he also presented me you know a souvenir and made me the special Ambassador for Ruby and Paranormal Association and all that stuff Gustavo came up with his wife and a little kid no must be around 10 months or 12 months a little they left and once they left I came out of the hotel the just to have a smoke smoking was not allowed in the hotel from Isis came out now just Bank opposed it there's a beach so I I started smoking and I walked around the beach


I started smoking and I walked around the beach so I went to this beach and uh there's one man around him in his 70s just sitting on the shore and looking at the road like somehow you know when you see people you know that they're sad or they might be feeling lonely so I just walked up to him uh it is totally okay to talk to strangers abroad it's totally okay it's in India there's a lot of things that how can you talk to him it's totally okay so I walked up to him I sat next to him and uh I said hey I want to smoke so yeah thanks he was looking homeless he said yeah thanks man so he picked up a cigarette from my box lighted up for him and he started smoking I said and uh are you okay I said are you okay and then this guy says you know what is life I said no sir I do not life is a lot of things and yet nothing these are the exact words and


things and yet nothing these are the exact words and I'm just quoting it whatever you said has a deep meaning I can relate to it I can understand but why are you saying it he said because I feel like dying yet I'm forced to live now what is forcing you to live my family to go back to your family this guy goes silent absolutely silent after around uh I guess we could Silence of five six minutes you know once I raped a girl near Argentina border it's been 17 years I have come out and I'm not Gathering that courage to go back to my family to face them so this guy apparently is coming out from jail after 17 years and sitting in the capital of Montevideo is a street called rambla on a beach like ramna openly so then in these 17 years of my Exile you know what I've realized please tell me God is there ghost is there they are both there only us we people we are not trying we are trying to give them shapes and


not trying we are trying to give them shapes and sizes we are trying to give them some sort of identity so this guy apparently sounded very much um no deep in I mean it felt like that he has gone to analyze himself throughout the years in Exile and then this guy stands up he goes up he walks out this conversation if you look has no meaning it has no meaning but why I'm telling you this conversation that I have met people like him many a times where they have changed entirely from what they they wear that makes me sometimes believe that there is something that is also changing humans for the good apparently I am a total believer you can say like complete believer of everything of whatever people say it's just that I have my own way of seeing things you know they say that if you feel a lack of anything you give out more of it in the world yeah yeah so it might have happened because of you know I was four and a half when I was sent to


was four and a half when I was sent to boarding so there was a feeling of um attention and all these things that has been there with me but with time it has now gone and I am giving all these things to people but I'm missing that me sometimes maybe maybe you'll find it through more Explorations maybe maybe this was a heavy episode oh well very heavy thank you so much I hope you had fun on the show and uh hoping to have you again after you've accumulated even more experiences and more NDS for great podcast content oh well thankfully I mean I'm not wishing for anything I know I'm wishing for you surviving yeah so thank you Mr thank you so much it was different I know we usually host people on this show who are very convinced about their paranormal experiences but I feel perspectives like this are important as well while it's fantastic to ask more questions about the Paranormal it's also important to acknowledge perspectives like jayalani's perspective I disagreed with him


like jayalani's perspective I disagreed with him in many of the points that he put across I feel like human reality is extremely subjective everyone's minds are capable of perceiving or undergoing or seeing different levels of reality that's something I've learned through the podcast uh through talking to people like Shri M ambika Devi other paranormal themed episodes of the ranveer show but I definitely acknowledge jayalani's perspective because he's someone who's put himself in those strange situations for most strange episodes just like this make sure you follow the renovation on Spotify with a Spotify exclusive every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world many horror episodes will come up very soon on the runway show stay tuned [Music]


this is why if you notice all these mughals also because they were persianized they came from Persian culture they're very interested in astrology astrology is not common in the Islamic world but it is very common in Central Asia why because it is the influence of Iran and it's the influence of India and they both believed in their mahurat in the shubh din in the skies in the celestial we didn't have for example horses in India horses are not native in fact even after indo-europeans came even after the Greeks and Huns came even after the mughals came horses would have to be imported in India because India's climate is such that forces that don't naturally multiply they don't uh they're not disease free so we have to keep importing houses but we know that the indo-europeans had horses not only horses but their chariots whereas we don't find any such evidence in uh Indus Valley the way you don't find evidence of that we don't find evidence of any town


of that we don't find evidence of any town planning or modern cities in the uh after that period after 1500 BC with invited motion razakhan on the show to teach us about the history of Islam and Sufism and that's how this particular conversation began eventually we realized that it's a 101 on the history of religion in general we've spoken about every religion that originated in Asia and this one so if you're someone who enjoys knowing much more about culture knowing about Real History unlike most history textbooks that are used in schools today you've got to understand that history is fragmented we're constantly rediscovering history and the only way to know real truthful impactful history is by learning from the experts mohsin Raza Khan is one of those experts one of the most welded people you've had on the show I'm sure he's going to become a TRS All-Star we recorded another bunch of fantastic episodes after this one highly recommend that you watch this particular one till the


recommend that you watch this particular one till the end for more episodes just like this make sure you follow TRS on Spotify or Spotify exclusive every episode available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world before I let you slip into this fantastic conversation I want to highlight that our meditation app level is now live on the App Store on the Play Store we link it down below make sure you go download it make sure you begin your yoga meditation and health oriented Journeys and now we have one of the year's best history episodes with mohsin razakhan [Music] thank you [Music] hello everyone we have found a TRS All-Star this is mohsen razakhan sir thank you for being on the show um when we had scheduled you as a guest we thought we'll do a whole special on Islam and the more I talk to you outside uh The more I've gotten to know you I feel that you have so many subjects to offer you also told me that in order to


to offer you also told me that in order to truly understand the story of Islam you need to understand what the world was like before uh Islam Christianity Judaism really originated so I think for this episode we're going to do a history of religions uh special uh I want to begin with a simple question how are you sir I'm great I'm very happy to be here and we okay so we're having a very interesting conversation about uh Islam in general the origins of it and um the nature of Arabia in general the gulf in general before Islam where would you like to begin the story sir because I think uh listeners are viewers know a lot about Indian culture and Hinduism and Buddhism but I was waiting for the right kind of guest to help us learn about Islam and glad to have you on so glad to be here so um I would begin the story of Islam you know in the pre-islamic Arabia okay that is um you know we don't know things for certain


um you know we don't know things for certain uh in in Antiquity in the ancient world when things happened exactly and uh we believe that uh Prophet Muhammad was born around 570 CE Common Era or in the old way A.D and what was uh Middle East like when he was born what was uh especially that area which he was born so uh today's Saudi Arabia and even at that time this Arabian Peninsula could be divided into a few parts the two main parts are the hijaz and the najth the nudge is the central desert you know the area around Riyadh Etc and the hijaz is the Red Sea Coast so Mecca Madina they come in the area of ajaz so Prophet Muhammad was born in this area he was born in Mecca in a tribe called the quresh and within that tribe there was a subgroup called the Banu Hashim the house of Hashem uh and uh he was born in it um to a gentleman called uh Abdullah his


um to a gentleman called uh Abdullah his mother's name was Amina and um unfortunately he was uh or has Faith would have it he was orphaned his father passed away uh even before he was born mother passed away at six years of age um he goes to live in the house of his grandfather for two years then the grandfather also passes away and he goes to live in the house of his uncle uh Abu Talib this is the story um now what exactly was the pre-existing religion of this part of the world so these people would be normally categorized as paganism that is they believed in a large number of Gods um they had a deity called hubal who was a Syrian god of the Moon they believed in three daughters called uh you know derived from the Egyptian Isis one of them was the Egyptian religion still around at this point like in the Gulf as well very interesting so Egypt had already by this time converted to Christianity Coptic Christianity but Egypt's influence


converted to Christianity Coptic Christianity but Egypt's influence had been there because these were neighboring civilizations so um their gods and goddesses some of them had Arabian forms in fact um It is believed that the Kaaba housed 360 Idols these 360 Idols were Idols of the various tribes that occupied Arabia most of this area was not settled territory Arabs that is Bedouins were a tribal people each one had their own gods and goddesses um so what happened was that some of these Arabs had now become sedentary they had settled down some in Yemen of course Yemen had a civilization for hundreds of years before that but even in this area that is in the mecca area Medina area agriculture had arrived in some Oasis towns and then Mecca was of course a trading and religious Center so we some Arabs or some Bedouins had settled down into sedentary life and as you know these are different stages of civilization tribal societies are usually considered


of civilization tribal societies are usually considered more primitive they are simpler life is more of a struggle and once you get down to sedentary life your life becomes more assured you have assured sources of water food Etc your Prosperity increases so your demands also change of your Society your Society becomes more hierarchical and it's no longer equal in the same way so what we have here is a large number of tribes they are bordered by two large Empires one is the Empire of the Iranians uh sasanian Empire these are zoroastrians on the other side you have the Byzantine Empire that is basically a Eastern Orthodox Christianity they occupy the areas of Syria Palestine all of that area Anatolia and also parts of Egypt um the Iranians occupy what is most of Iran all the way up to Iraq this area is the area of hijaz this is ruled by local tribes and below that they have some kind of uh in Yemen they already have some kind of


of uh in Yemen they already have some kind of civilization and kingdoms Etc on the other side of the Red Sea also you have Christians because abyssinia which is today's Ethiopia has already become Christian and it has a question King Etc so you have an atmosphere of uh quite a lot of diversity I would say multi-religious atmosphere Christians and Christian communities are also there in Arabia but more like individual Christians are there but these their Christianity would not be recognizable say to a European Christian because they follow different uh sex nestorians coptics Etc um zoroastrins are there in small numbers and then large communities of Jews are there because what has happened is that already the diaspora has taken place that is Jews have had two waves large I'm talking about two large waves there are others of Destruction one was when um the Babylonians Nebuchadnezzar II invaded Palestine Israel and he drove them out and took them as some of them as slaves then


and took them as some of them as slaves then Cyrus the Great of Iran uh Persia was shown in 300. a caricature of him it's not really him you know they they made up much of 300 is kind of made up film but yeah kind of they they denote him so uh exactly yeah the Cyrus name has come up a lot uh in my history books amongst my Parsi friends um he was a zoroastian king yeah and he was an amazing King actually people don't know his story he was an amazing man because he did not use slave labor at all uh which is very unusual in the ancient world okay everybody including from India to the West everybody's using slave labor you can call it by different names you can call them dasas or whatever you want to call them okay this guy never used slavery ever beat his army he paid every laborer not just Army his laborers he paid all who constructed everything not only that he freed the Jews so Jews had


only that he freed the Jews so Jews had been brought as slaves by nebuchadnezza the second to Babylon he defeated takes over Babylon and he frees them he says you are free to go so what happens is not everybody returns to Palestine or Israel many of them settle in our surrounding areas some of them come to Arabia also settle in Medina Mecca etc etc and they they are very skilled people because they are from a more advanced civilization so they know agriculture which I haven't don't so they take over some of the best agricultural lands in the Oasis and Medina they take over uh they're very good in jewelry and craft and handicrafts they they're very good at making weapons because they come from more advanced civilization so they uh they have also learning but really the large wave of them comes in the second wave that is when the Roman Empire because Roman Empire also as I mentioned took over all of this area Egypt Israel Palestine Syria is


all of this area Egypt Israel Palestine Syria is obviously so what they do is that there is a rebellion in Israel and after the second or third Rebellion they just destroy the temple uh Jerusalem and they expel all the Jews that's how you get the Jewish diaspora in Europe Etc okay and some of these diaspora Jews also come to Arabia and they settle in so there's a two wave migration some older some later but they are obviously and they have writing uh our Arab also have writing but they're Jewish script has a scripture so every religion doesn't have a scripture uh now I'll get a little bit definitional that is what is scripture is scripture is like the Bible the Quran The Vedas only more advanced civilization that is civilizations which have had agriculture Etc and have have writing and uh organized religion they develop a scripture actually the incident comes from Cyrus one of the incident comes so or around this you can say is around 500 BCE and services


this you can say is around 500 BCE and services to the Jews that where is your scripture do you have something in writing in your religion and the Jews still don't have they say no sir we don't have a written scripture that means it was still a largely oral tradition of the Juliet people but in in contact with the more advanced civilization that is Iran they also then codify the scripture and write down the Torah Etc it may have come earlier these stories but they were not written down just like Homer stories Homer stories initially were just oral stories they were not written down I think that's the case with most of the ancient world it was mostly overall even The Vedas it's interesting but orally transmitted so Abraham would sit with young Brahmin boys and he would instruct them to memorize and recite in a particular way and that's why the recitation of The Vedas is more or less the same whether you go to Kashmir or you go to kanyakumari because


to Kashmir or you go to kanyakumari because it has been orally taught in the precise way the meter and that's the way to preserve it how did like the rest of the world which is the Roman Empire parts of Africa the gulf uh maybe even Russia how did all of them look at the Indian civilization like was it truly as advanced as we were told because one thing I've learned about a lot of historians is everyone has kind of their own opinions on things but I'd like to just I'd like know yours as well see there was not that much contact with India because India was quite far off from say Europe or China and it was uh walled off by the Himalayas and huge Seas Etc and in the Iranian uh sagros mountains and all of that so there was not that much contact uh but there was also some contact there were some Indian traders who would go into the central Asia there was uh uh Indians had also kind of become more inward looking they


had also kind of become more inward looking they were not because of the niche of the geography yeah they were isolated and and India was a kind of a dweepa you know Islander kind of I believe they started looking eastwards yeah so what happens is that India really uh takes off um with the arrival of Buddhism because as the Buddhism is a more of a missionary religion see some religions are not that missionary Buddhism was a more Mission so it used to send out monks it a lot of people got converted in Central Asia and China Etc and that also and by this time also uh the Greeks had arrived on our borders thanks to Alexander so there was a lot of interaction with the Greeks and the Greeks had a whole civilization because of Alexander's Conquest stretching across the Middle East into Europe North Africa Etc so thanks to the Greek kingdoms that came up thanks to the Buddhists and of course it's not to say that there was not


of course it's not to say that there was not Hindu uh what we today call Hindu I mean Hindu is a modern term relatively speaking comes from Persia let's call it Vedic civilization uh this civilization uh also had a spread uh both to Southeast Asia with our Traders just as Buddhism spread to Southeast Asia from India but also uh uh see our uh also we had a partner civilization Persia is actually India's Partners we are actually two brothers from the same mother that is the two closest languages are uh ancient Persian which is called you know zendavesta and old Sanskrit so old Persian and old Sanskrit come from the same root the proto-indo-european language is it this uh is it the same as like house or astronism and Indian cultures have a lot of parallels this is the reason because they come from the same route so actually what was The Vedic religion originally it was a fire sacrifice religion there were no temples people used to sit around a fire


were no temples people used to sit around a fire have grass on which you would be seated and poor sacrifices into the fire the smoke of the sacrifices would go to your ancestors and to the Devas Devas means the same word as Deus in Greek The Shining ones this root is the same Indo-European old Indo-European Devas is and it's going to your ancestors so that's why Iran's relation ancient religion was also a fire religion because they come from the same source what happens is that a prophet emerges in Iran called Zara tutra we do not know the exact date it is could be as early as 1000 BC we don't know is this zorasto zoraster which we now know as zoraster so Zara tustra was a was actually a predecessor for all the Semitic religions by which I mean he was a predecessor for Judaism for Islam and for Christianity why because he's the first guy who says I am a prophet a kind of


who says I am a prophet a kind of prophet a messenger from God he says that there are two forces good and evil in the world yeah but they come from the same Source the original surastianism believed that there was a person in the sky called ahura Mazda this word is very interesting because ahura comes from Asura the same root in Persian the word s could not be pronounced and it was replaced by H everywhere so Asura becomes ahura that means you can imagine that their original region before surastianism no there's nothing original but their earlier religion let's put it this way was similar to Vedic Hinduism because asuras are in vedicans and their gods also have the similar names uh Mitra varuna uh you know so they have the same kind of gods Indra that we in India's Vedic civilization had the early Vedic civilization I think we're talking about the seed religion which is common to both Indians so they are actually like our brothers in the sen in


they are actually like our brothers in the sen in that sense civilizationally speaking Yeah so so the thing is and this is why if you notice all these mughals also because they were persianized they came from Persian culture they're very interested in astrology astrology is not common in the Islamic world but it is very common in Central Asia why because it is the influence of Iran and it is the influence of India and they both believed in the mahurat in the subdin in the skies in the celestial bodies and everything would be done according to that predictions we made and that's why they had very good relationships the mughals with the Hindu pundits astrologers with uh with even some Hindu sects like the goraknathis Etc so even when zoroaster comes he doesn't completely destroy the old religion because nothing comes out of nothing everything has a past from which a new thing evolves so he keeps the fire religion the fire sacrifice the but he transforms it that's why the parsis


the but he transforms it that's why the parsis also have fire temples where the fire is burning fire is very critical for us also in India Agni is very important the sacrifice to Agni in fact Agni is so important that no ceremony can happen not marriage can happen not death can happen not any of the sacrifice can happen without an in fact is so important that North India would not exist without Agni because when the Aryans came originally this whole gangetic valley this is another part of our environmental history that we don't know the whole gangetic value was covered in thick forest and you know hunter-gatherers or ancient men uh even nomadic people did not have the power to chop down millions of Acres of forest so what would they do they would set it on fire we burn down millions of Acres of forest to make it into Farmland Ridge farmland and that's how the endogengetic value was cleared there were two parts that the Aryans took one was called the


parts that the Aryans took one was called the uttarapath starting from whatever Punjab Ariana stretching up to Bengal the other is called the dakshinapat that is again starting from Punjab haryana but coming down through Gujarat into Maharashtra and South so these are the two roots that they took but this route was relatively okay you know there was not that much vegetation but that one required Agni and that's why Agni is so important so yeah um I have some questions sir and I'm asking you these questions because till this point we've only had historians on the show completely against the Aryan Theory and for me the show is a medium to learn myself like it's replaced my need for books I barely read books I talk to experts instead because I feel you guys have filtered Knowledge from thousands of books that you've read you know you as a guy when you're thinking you look down so they say that people who look towards the side learn because of hearing people who look


the side learn because of hearing people who look up like myself learn because of visual and people who look down learn through books so uh I would like to know from all the books that you've read uh if the iron theory is true and I'm not countering you here I'm just trying to grasp if you're countering me it's even better so my students come to me all the time and I love it so but I just I want to know more about it sure so first of all this term Aryan has become sort of unacceptable after since Hitler abused it so much so we use the term Indo-European uh more commonly okay and uh the there's a lot of now uh evidence both from genetic studies and linguistic studies these are the two major forms that is uh through linguistic studies uh as I mentioned we have been able to figure out uh where do languages originate roughly and how they evolved so we know that there is an Indo-European group of languages which spreads or stretches


Indo-European group of languages which spreads or stretches from Bangladesh in the East all the way to Ireland in the west geographically that is there was some proto-indo-european language from which these emerged they mixed with local tongues maybe but they emerge from there for example in India we use the you know the uh sound or ra now ra is not an Indo-European sound it comes most likely from dravidian so so all of those are not Indo-European they're not found in other European languages so we assume that it was from a local tongue now this language proto-indo-european probably emerged around the Caspian Sea area you know uh one theory is it it emerged around so where is that geographically you could say yeah Southern Russia you could say um um yeah the steps somewhere around that area around the Caspian Sea Southern Russia you would say yeah around that area or Northern um uh Anatolia also Northern Anatolia Russia yeah that border area around the just north of the Caucasus around that area uh and


north of the Caucasus around that area uh and um what we believe is that uh some groups went to the West and from there emerged the the European languages you know greek latin Germanic languages Etc Slavic languages uh Celtic languages uh all the way up to Ireland uh a second group came what is called the indo-persian group indo-iranian group from which emerges all of these languages you know ancient Iranian um uh the Kurdish language and in fact you would be surprised that the first time we hear of uh Sanskrit is not in India the first find we find written uh is uh from northern Syria that is you know Kings such as from their names you can recognize that they would be they would have common ancestors with uh Indian Europeans Etc all the way up in uh you know uh Mesopotamian and Syria as in like though evidence we found so there are two kinds of evidence one is linguistic evidence so what we do is we do computer modeling okay


so what we do is we do computer modeling okay they try to retrace depending on the language connections where the Proto language must have come from so for example there will be some connection the the Indian uh Indo-European languages such as Gujarati Marathi Punjabi etc etc Bengali and all they're all related uh in Hindi we would say these are uh uh upper branch that is we uh these are prakrits that is the Sanskrit mixing with the uh the proto-sanskrit mixing with the local tongues and its local variations becomes Gujarati somewhere somewhere something these are and they are related to each other that is why many Indians can at least in the Border areas understand each other because the these languages are cousins cousins of each other whereas it would be difficult to understand the gravidian languages for a Indo-European speaker if he is not familiar with it and of course similarly the dravidian language is also though they are distinct there's there's some connection between them as a group


there's there's some connection between them as a group of languages uh and by the way there are uh just to explain to you that actually at some point the dravidian languages probably covered the whole of the Indian subcontinent including Pakistan including North India how do we know this we know this yeah because uh there is there are still Islands left of the rubidian languages there's an island of dravidian language in Balochistan in Pakistan it's called bravi bravi is a dravidian language but it's still spoken by small groups of people in Balochistan and we can imagine that at some time it was more in the past it was more widespread similarly in the into gingetic basically it's a language something like Tamil or Malayalam but spoken in Pakistan yes yes and in fact even in the into gingetic plane there is a language called multo okay um I don't know if it's still spoken but it was spoken until fairly recent times and Malto again is a dravidian language so we know that uh in fact also


language so we know that uh in fact also many of the languages spoken by tribals in uh are usually uh so there's another there's a third group of languages also in India uh it goes by different names but some people call it the Khmer group because it is related to what's spoken in Khmer in Cambodia it's a Eastern's uh Eastern group of languages so you can find them also among tribal populations in India and some tribal population speak some kind of a mixture of Khmer and ravidian that means these population groups and these people were there for a long time much possibly before with uh the Aryan Invasion Theory I think the counter to that theory is that uh during the the last ice age basically most of the Earth was not habitable so people settled along um the Persian stretch and in India and then once the Ice Age started withering away people started going to Europe uh okay so I I don't I mean this is the theory that has come up on the show a lot okay uh I


come up on the show a lot okay uh I would like to know what you think because I think your theory is that when you get out of Africa you settle down on the Caspian Sea and then two groups emerge from we don't know I'm not saying if we get out of Africa Caspian Sea so we don't know what the uh Proto origins of these people are okay so out of Africa we may have come you know considering we have found skeletons that are you know 200 100 to 200 000 years old uh and we have now recently in fact in Morocco found uh skeletons which are maybe 300 000 years old the so human Origins which were considered only to be about 100 000 years have now been pushed back to about 300 000 or more and Out of Africa several waves have come out of Africa so several waves have come out um and there are all kinds of speculations also now because neanderthals is already occupying parts of Eurasia even before Homo sapiens arrived when


Eurasia even before Homo sapiens arrived when we're talking about humans we are actually talking only about Homo sapiens sapien right when we are saying 100 200 300 000 but even older than that are other humanoids such as neanderthals such as there are so many yeah people don't understand is that there was a whole phase in history where Homo sapiens co-existed along with all their cousins at the same time so you would see humanoids like yourself just nearby slightly different from you but yeah yeah because look exactly like a homo sapiens nor would a dinosaur look like one and there are others also but uh but possibly we eliminated them or um in fact the theory is that we also cross-bred with uh them the females of the species at least because their DNA is present in us in our DNA how they arrived and what happened here exactly but we know that there was a complete change in India's civilization that is Indus Valley was a very Advanced civilization you


is Indus Valley was a very Advanced civilization you know there was Plumbing Indoor Water there was a lot of trade ships manufacturing of goods uh highly complex agriculture beautiful town planning citrators I mean the works it was just as advanced as anything say in Mesopotamia Etc but we suddenly find cities disappear how do we know this because uh historians archaeologists dig straight down and each layer of the Earth tells you about a period of human civilization so you can therefore know by how much you're digging as to what date you're at and you can also do carbon dating for that uh which is a different process you can um once you dig up you uncover both inorganic matter that is artifacts Etc which can help you date and you know what is the sophistication of the civilization of its settlements Etc you can also look at organic matter because you can look at what grains they were eating what uh how those grains were cooked or not cooked you can look at I mean a


or not cooked you can look at I mean a variety of uh the remains of their domesticated animals you can look at so what we discover is actually cities disappear in India we don't find cities after around 1 500 BCE that means it's a civil now what is happening is that Civilization has probably reverted to something more simpler maybe a village life or maybe a nomadic life or whatever we don't find evidence of large-scale cities now unless somebody discovers that somebody digs up and shows us that we believe that there's been a change there must have been some big events possibly cataclysmic yes of course but we don't know we can't see unless we have the evidence so guess you're right and this could be a very plausible explanation I'll give you my romantic Theory and this is a theory not shaped from just the people who talk about Indian history and culture uh even when I spoken to archaeologists who have uh studied Africa through the show and this is just stuff I've


Africa through the show and this is just stuff I've learned through the show I feel civilization is much older than we think could be the truth is that things just get destroyed over time like uh the only things that actually can survive the test of time are Stones like the pyramids like ancient stone structures uh and I also constantly feel that there are regular cataclysmic events um because of which civilization just gets boiled down to simplicity very well true could be possible but the thing is that you know it would leave some physical Trace so you I mean once you start digging you would find some Trace even if there even if the culture is not literate so first of all you could find script you could find fragmentary evidence even if you don't find that you could find objects you know Pottery Etc uh you could find grains as I said organic matter instead of finding anything and then you know to speculate that it was destroyed and recreated I mean you know then you can believe in anything we


mean you know then you can believe in anything we have to believe at least I would and most Scholars would like to base their Theory on some kind of evidence you know some kind of do you think the Indian government needs to do more work in terms of digging yeah in fact it should open India up to not only Indian Scholars but to uh from all over the world let them come let them dig you know that in fact our most of our history is because of the British they are the ones who discovered in this Valley they are the ones who discovered Ashoka we didn't know about Ashoka they are the ones who deciphered the scripts they are the ones who dug up The Monuments they are the ones who told us so if they were you know so uh dangerous for us and I I agree with some people who say that look the history writing was done a bit from the British perspective okay but they also laid the foundations for what we have today we wouldn't we didn't know


what we have today we wouldn't we didn't know about Ashoka Ashoka was forgotten in India um so was uh the Indus Valley it makes you think of how many other kings or kingdoms or teachings are also forgotten uh though a lot of it now we have also rediscovered so since then we have also done a lot of work so it's not like we have just completely forgotten we're not depending only what the British did we have our own Scholars have been working on this which is why rather than attaching emotional or religious angles to history you should attach uh research evidence uh more investment in archeology exactly we need more young minds more well-trained Scholars more skilled people to look at it technology you know use technology so um so so so we don't uh use these terms anymore are in Invasion Etc but indo-europeans came we know this from the physical evidence we know from the changes that have taken place to the to the physical evidence in the landscape we know it also


the physical evidence in the landscape we know it also from their uh evidence that um we didn't have for example horses in India horses are not native in fact even after indo-europeans came even after the Greeks and Huns came even after the mughals came horses would have to be imported in India because India's climate is such that horses that don't naturally multiply uh they don't uh they're not disease free so we have to keep importing houses but we know that the indo-europeans had horses not only horses but their chariots whereas we don't find any such evidence in in this Valley so we don't find evidence of that we don't find so we don't find evidence of any town planning or modern cities in the uh after that period after 1500 BC to you so there's a range of plus the language language is the biggest uh giveaway which makes me think that all these stories you read about it with horses then where did the horses go and where had they come


where did the horses go and where had they come from that time if if you know those are much stories are truly tens of thousands or lacks of years old at least something so amazing that even you know Kingdoms in the south of India [Music] Etc they would import they would import horses they would there would be thousands of Turks living there in the Deccan because they were bringing the horses there they were also serving as soldiers we have a much longer history than we we imagined with Central Asia with others Etc and uh and it's not just the Hindu Europeans coming they have after that also they've been many waves of invasions the Huns came in you know the white hands which we call in India the the term for hanis in West is you must have heard it's um but in India we call them Saka or shakya in fact Buddha is called sakyamuni is the muni of the sakeas which isn't interesting that they had spread so far that is


interesting that they had spread so far that is all the way up to Bihar and Nepal they had spread where are the Huns from geographical so uh so there are two types of hands the white hands and others and they basically come from Central Asia so and they invaded not just India they invited Iran they invaded Ukraine then was it all this is so so we have a much longer history of uh and the Greeks than the Greeks arrive and you know they are at our borders and they come in so there have been waves of people coming in uh and at some point even the dravidians must have come in right it's not like maybe that maybe they took the coastal route you know along the coast even before the dravidians there are other people that arrived which the kind of people that you sometimes find a on the Andaman and nicobar Island you know uh um you know and you also find them in parts of interior Forest of India so you have waves of people coming in


of India so you have waves of people coming in you know so humanity is there's nothing such as pure Humanity or purity of a civilization Etc it's all a mixture yeah I think I think religion if you if you read sapiens like you all know her right he keeps saying how all religions irrespective of what your original belief is is a way to control large masses of people and at some point you have to detach yourself from what you emotionally feel for your own religion and look at human history in a scientific manner as human history look at it unemotionally look at it from an archaeological evidence-based perspective and that's how you'll get a deeper learning of yourself as a human being so uh that's the only kind of cautionary uh sentence I want to put out there for our listeners because I know that there's a lot of people who completely closed down to all these ideas of pitching and in saying that I want to say that you're one of the most interesting


want to say that you're one of the most interesting guests I've ever had on the show so we began uh speaking about the pre-islamic world and we've gone right up till India so I gotta bring you back to the gulf but India is part of the pre-islamic world this is the most interesting one see this is what I'm saying you know everything is connected I mean how do you expect that the Khmer tongue and austration austro meaning Eastern Eastern Asian tongue is being spoken in India that means at some point there was a migration from there correct way from somewhere there in the in in Southeast Asia or whatever because if people in the northeast of India and the east of India also are speaking a Khmer related language that means things are mixed you know things are not this this this crazy search for purity everywhere and it's everywhere you know it's in it's in United States nowadays the whole Trump thing is actually about purity right the whole thing is that whites are


purity right the whole thing is that whites are realizing especially lower income whites so it's partly economics that is they feel left out second they also feel that their nation is changing in a way that they can't recognize you the Browning of America as Russell Peter says eventually all of us are going to be beige yeah I hope so so that's that's what happens in history right like eventually you all just form one big globule which is why I think if you study the Indian uh Gene code we're a very complex mix yeah probably why we're the earliest to become beige exactly India is one of the most mixed you're absolutely right and and what we have to understand is that look how is our language uh we by languages I mean say these North Indian prakrits that we speak of how are they so closely related to uh Persian or to Pashto Etc we have to try to understand this it's it can't be a fluke right it they must have been some


be a fluke right it they must have been some kind of a computer modeling can tell us actually how these languages go back you can do a retracing of the language how these practice emerge and how at what point must Sanskrit have split from uh uh that old Persian language and old Sanskrit how they must have split how before that they must have been a proto-indo-european language from which the Western Indo-European split that is the Greek Latin Etc I mean they split can you keep recreating you go to that area around the Caspian Sea and also of course you have physical evidence also because you have ex you have a burial Chambers you have jewelry Weaponry chariots you when you did you find their so you have the the remnants of the culture the physical remnants of the culture you have the linguistic evidence of the culture otherwise how do you have Sanskrit being written in Northern Syria you know now you can take a nationalist position and you can say this is all uh


nationalist position and you can say this is all uh rubbish and actually everything came out because of the Ice Age from India and we but you know kind of the computer modeling on Linguistics or the physical evidence doesn't testify like the moment you completely discount any Theory your capacity to learn also stops that's what I feel like just keep yourself open keep room for changes even in the mindset that you've already adopted completely correct which is which is why I struggle a lot to talk to um a lot of older folks in India for some reason I'm not just talking about right-wing folks or left-wing folks everyone who's older everyone who's older wants to be set in their ways you see the he and by older I mean actually it starts pretty early it starts in your teens itself the most open are children okay then teenagers and then youth because the older you get the more set you are in your ways and there is a concept in uh we use it in IR also in international relations called


we use it in IR also in international relations called uh ontological security cognitive security Now I know I'm using very complex no go for it but ontology just means reality to what is your view of reality so what does religion do religion gives you a view of reality what is real and what's not real for example we find ourselves as the German philosopher Heidegger used to say thrown into the world that is when we awake we find ourselves in the world as a stranger right so what do we do we take whatever our parents and our societies told us about reality and accept that because it tells us a story and it quietens our uh disturbance our agitation so that there's no cognitive dissonance so that now we feel calmer this is a story of how this camera came into existence you came into existence I came into existence these plants animals I have a story of reality the story of reality is what um gives us security Now the moment this is questioned this creates ontological


Now the moment this is questioned this creates ontological insecurity and a cognitive dissonance this uh psychologists are finding out psychiatrists are finding out is actually as painful as physical pain it's almost like somebody has taken a knife and run it through your body if I tell you that your view of reality is actually a lie yeah now it could be any view of reality it could be a view of reality that comes through religion or through nationalism the moment you find out there's something wrong with it it disturbs you you can't sleep at night you know you don't feel good anymore some people commit suicide it is so disturbing for some people so now the thing is you know I had a different uh training on nature you could rather say I had it my nature is to look at hard things I have the ability to look at hard things and to look for truth or as far as one can achieve uh the true picture of reality even if it makes me feel deeply uncomfortable I was


if it makes me feel deeply uncomfortable I was willing to face up to it I think discomfort is the key to learning more exactly you have to get out of your comfort zone to learn anything it will make you uncomfortable to look at these facts but you have to say Okay what is reality how close can I get to the truth however much closer I can get I should do it and you should have courage so the first even the Greeks believe that the first virtue which is required for all their other cardinal virtue of the Greeks had four or five cardinal virtues but the first virtue is courage because there are courage you can't do anything yes you have so many podcasts and so we gotta we gotta come back exactly yeah because come back so let's get back to Zara because he is the dude he is the original man he is the first prophet as I explained to you in fact the Jews and the Christians and the Muslims owe to him because he's


Christians and the Muslims owe to him because he's the first guy who's saying look I'm I've brought a message from God um God Is ahura Mazda as I said and The Story begins from there because it's actually Asura Mazda because they don't have the word as I said Sindhu becomes Hindu the name comes from Persia because the river Sindhu they could not pronounce the s that they changed it to H similarly is this God but he has two forms two uh Natures in the original Zoroastrianism I have to give some context to the listeners here sure um so basically if you study things like the Vishnu puran or shiv puran they talk about Devas and asuras as being uh to enemies so again I've tried digging up the truth through the podcast and what I figured is Devas as we call it were probably a set of Kings or leaders of tribes on this side which is geographically India and asuras could have been Kings on that side of


asuras could have been Kings on that side of the Indus which is very likely Persia and even if you actually study the Asura culture and the puranas you'll see that even they prayed to the same Gods like Shiva like Vishnu Brahma Etc so my reading here is that for us as Indians but they were the enemies and for them as Persians we were the enemies and you know even if you read the Vishnu puran eventually the asuras and the Devas also work together but let me just clarify one thing uh Shiva is not a Vedic God Shiva is a God who emerges later he's uh therefore there are you know pashupati that seal that has been found which we call the pashupati seal as the image of that Yogi with the bulls horns yeah yeah and we say that that might have been say a Proto Shiva but he's not found in The Vedic Pantheon Vedic Pantheon the closest we can find is rudra as a cognate of


we can find is rudra as a cognate of Shiva that is we find Indra there we find Agni we find Mitra but we do not find uh Shiva Etc so um and even Vishnu is not the way we imagine Vishnu Vishnu actually is a in the original story is a dwarf uh Divine one who works with the gods so Deva the uh the roots of Deva The etymological Roots comes from the same root as Deus days in Greek meaning God Devas meaning they was also meaning the same thing The Shining ones Devas who gave off light and actually Asura is also were a Divine being they were not evil originally in the later versions they become asuras become evil Etc so ahura Mazda therefore is not a bad he's a good Force he's a god is his prophetra and he also is predicting the birth actually of a of a a Messianic leader who will come after him born from a virgin so so you can see that that there's a


so so you can see that that there's a the Christian myth is already there in what zarath is stressing wow is also saying that look there is good there's evil these are these two forces the forces of light and darkness they fight with each other in creation and in the end of course light will win over also he talks about the day of judgment and he also talks about heaven and hell so he's given you the basic framework of Judaism Christianity and Islam because here is this and roughly we don't know exactly could be around 1000 BCE could be up and up or down a little bit uh and so he's given us Heaven and Hell he's given us the day of judgment the basics of Islam also the basics of Christianity and Judaism he's given us all of these things and it makes sense that the Jews were actually slaves in Babylon so they were exposed to this story uh Nebuchadnezzar II had enslaved and taken them there and uh Cyrus the


and taken them there and uh Cyrus the Great freed them so they they were familiar with the story you see and therefore you can find fragments of that in their own versions and that's how they also write down the story they start their written scriptures appear only after that not before that and Moses was when so again we don't have any physical evidence of Moses no historical evidence just like we don't of Jesus Moses is the origins of Judaism Origins one version of the story the other so there are two now scholars believe that these were two independent stories one origin story is of Abraham so one group and they believe this could be the group that went to Babylon and some were enslaved in Egypt the ones which were enslaved in Egypt Jews have Moses as the original origin story as their leader as their Prophet Etc the other group has Abraham why don't you do a bit of a 101 of uh Jewish history or just very quick so people understand even Judaism


or just very quick so people understand even Judaism because I feel it has a very key role to play in this story as well sure so um so coming just I'm just going to dovetail it into the Zara thusra story uh once he emerges as a prophet uh he changes Iran's religion but not completely as I mentioned fire still continues to be an integral part of that religion and um many of the rights are there after him this religion develops different sects two of the most prominent sects are manichaism manikasm believes again in two forces Good and Evil and they fight with each other and you see these good and evils very interesting because the evil part that is the force of darkness and evil in surastianism he's actually the Prototype of Satan of devil shaytan he has exactly those qualities so you can see how this is coming into others other religions also from there interesting and the good guy is actually another name for Aura Mazda that is you know I don't know


Aura Mazda that is you know I don't know I don't know how to pronounce his name uh but is uh so and then you have these two forces of Good and Evil black and white that's why we say don't be many kind when we say in English we mean don't see the world only in black and white the world is great it's not just black and white so but it comes from that uh one of the sects of this restaurant now Judaism has very complex Origins and it's not actually clear uh what it is they are clearly again a Semitic people Semitic people being the people two three branches one is the Arabs that is the Arabic language the other Semitic language is Hebrew and the third semitech language which many people believe is the verbal language spoken in North Africa you know the berbers in Morocco Morocco in Algeria Etc so these Semitic people some people who lived in this area which is now Israel Palestine in those days there used to be different names