who live it. The problem in knowledge transfer, where I was getting at, including in Sikh case, now it's being told by those who study it in a microscope, not those who live it. What do you mean those who live it? -Practice.
Practitioners. The lovers of the faith. Now we have everywhere in the world, religiosity has become a sociological
or historical affair. They study a particular group of people in a particular place and time, in a particular region. That's not all of it. What they're telling is true, but it's so small subset. It's like a small data point. And now we take that data point and we extrapolate to the whole community. That's just not right. And you're saying Sikhi is a lot more about the practices also, which are not highlighted enough in mainstream narratives, including in Sikh mainstream narratives. Okay. As in within a Gurdwara, -Maybe kids.
-Within gurdwara, within textbooks in India, within the official history of India, which is sent
to every embassy in the world, including what Mr. Nehru wrote in The Glimpses of Heritage. Because the victors tell the story, right? This is the common cliche. My hope is that hopefully podcasts like this change the direction of where history is taken. It opens up avenues. That's right. I would also very humbly say, I feel bad for your generation, the generation before you, that you'll have to live through a time without this kind of information out there on the Internet. Sure, I'll take you feeling sad for us, but my point is, look, the reality is technology is constantly changing. Today we think technology
has disrupted the world -and democratized it more. Right?


has disrupted the world -and democratized it more. Right?
-Yeah. But earlier, technology was paper library from where I lived in Jhansi was not even a five-minute walk. I think I went there once. It just wasn't my ecosystem at the time. -So for those it was, they studied it.
-Okay. The thing we were talking about how it's political now with Pakistan and India. I think something audiences
don't understand is something I've only learned
through the show, talking to historians. Borders as a concept are very fleeting. It's because we're born into a particular geography that we think,
oh, this border means so much. But actually, borders historically have always changed, and they will keep changing, all the time. And in the case of Punjab, the Radcliffe Line, to be very technical, -is totally artificial.
-Yeah. Even when there are borders, the natural borders -are always the terrains.
-Yeah. -Like rivers.
-The rivers. Or particular mountain or something of that nature. -Some water, right?
-Yeah. The person who did that never seen the space. It's so arbitrary. And he has written about it too, as well, and his wife talks about it posthumously. But my point not just that, Ranveer, we use passports. I'm here, I have to use passport
to enter this country Or to go any other country in the world. And I travel a lot. Even passports were not a norm
until 1970s. So our whole idea of borders, travels, migrations, is very, very skewed. It's like we have become small hearted now because it is about othering -who is allowed and who's not allowed.


-Yeah. It's so small. And in that smallness, we are creating a larger narrative which is so flawed, that has happened everywhere, including in religion. How do Sikhs feel about the Punjab in Pakistan? Look, if you listen to any decent Punjabi song, we don't see a separation. "Even this Punjab is mine,
even that Punjab is mine." These are common songs. Because the land itself, the word Punjab, it means the land of five rivers, "AB" is a Farsi or a Persian word
for water. So when you have 2-1/2 or 3 on one side, and the other... Something ain't right. -Something ain't right.
-Yeah. Maybe in our lifetimes we'll get to see. Well, I definitely dream like that. That's why I go on both sides
of the border and work with certain individuals. Look, what did Iqbal say? "My friendship is with those, who dream
of plucking the stars off the sky" So I want to live with bigger dreams. And within my lifetime, I've seen it happen with Germany, Cold War was much bigger -than what India-Pakistan is into.
-Yeah. But it got demolished. When the people's will overtakes the political will, it will happen. And we got to work on people's will. -Political will will never happen.
-Yeah. -They have to follow people's will.
-Yeah. I was telling you, I love this job, because I get to meet people from so many different walks of life. The one thing I understood about, especially Pakistan's political system, and again, I'm not trying to demean


anyone or any country, but I know that Pakistan as a country is run by the military. Everything from journalism narratives to what people feel, people think. I think Pakistanis are very rapidly getting more and more educated, thanks to the Internet and thanks to access to different opinions. I'd say the same for India. But I definitely believe that the Pakistan Military wants local Pakistanis to feel that India is the enemy and India is constantly trying to attack. And that's why
there is that sense of division. But I also sense that it's fading away. And this is, again, purely Internet narratives through things I've learned by talking to military men, talking to geopolitical analysts, people like yourself. My question to you, sir, is what is Pakistan actually like from your eyes? Especially when you were visiting the Sikhi-related centers? What was it like? -Opposite of this.
-Okay. And what you've said about Pakistan, one can make a case of India
on that as well. Like, who's really creating
the narratives of India which are fed there and vice versa? So I'll leave that aside because that game is of spinning, like on you're saying
there are narratives on both sides. Yeah, of course I see that. And they're available globally. Depends on what gets cited and who's using which IT cells these days, a lot of that's happening through a state propaganda. But look, when I visit, there, not just the Sikh centers. I go all over. I mean, I've been to Peshawar. I went all the way to Afghanistan border -in Pakistan.


-Really. I go to Hindu centers. I've gone to the temples, which are much older than the heritage centers here, in some cases, because, you see, we have to realize, you talk about what's in the textbook. Harappa/Mohenjo-Daro is an old civilization. India and Pakistan are a modern context. It's a conquest context. It's a colonial context, right? So if you take that out for a second, it's the same people with multiplicity of ideas and plurality of religions and languages, and culture is part of that. So I go to Takshashila there. Takshashila is there. It's where Guru Nanak... There's a place called Panja Sahib, and from there,
it's only about an hour drive, and Takshashila is right in the middle before we go to Islamabad. So I visit places which are historical, the museums, the cultural centers. I actually speak in many forums, including the language forum
called PILAC in Lahore. And I can tell you, the people's narrative is very clear. They love it. They watch all the movies
from here as well. They love India? People's part. Now, every government has their own elements, so there are elements who don't like certain things. Obviously,
there are state narratives everywhere. Last year, two years ago, I said this. I'll share it on your show. What I noticed between India and Pakistan, if I may bring that together. -Go for it.
-Because that's what I believe in. I believe in integrations of ideas and not feeding the forces which are more negative. Look, India is relatively more democratic state, which has been called non-democratic now in the last few years, which is heading towards becoming


a security state. Pakistan is a security state struggling to come out of being a security state. So that's where what's happening, politically speaking. When I look at people's level, if you look at exchange, even this month, I mean, there are literature festivals where people like Jothi Rai are sitting in Sindh and Karachi. Obviously, people's part is same. We cannot amplify the narrative,
which is divisive. The Hindu community of Pakistan, which people need to know -is actually pretty vibrant.
-Really. Which people don't know here, because that narrative is not being told. And it's larger in number than Sikhs. Narratives you hear at Sikhs mostly. -Okay.
-If you want to guess -you know how many Sikhs live in Pakistan?
-How many? Less than 9,000. You want to guess
how many Hindus live in Pakistan? Go for it. It's in lakhs. They have a strong lobbying group. They're educated, they're wealthy. There was a case a year and a half ago where one of the pilgrimage centers,
if I'll call it. It had a "phool talapta" and they took the case
all the way to Supreme Court and won because it was not being taken care. Actually, given the circumstances
of the country, they are struggling, obviously they are struggling as a country, but there is a lot going in there in terms of plurality as well. They have their own troubles
with Ahmadiyyas, just like here, we have the within the Hindu community,
you have troubles on how to deal with the tribes and the so called the low castes, those problems exist
everywhere in the world because they'd have to do
with internal racisms, we'll call it. I wanted to do one expansive episode on Sikhi with you. I think this episode


is just about Guru Nanak Devji and origins of Sikhi and kind of what it stands for today. It's kind of an introduction to-- I keep stopping myself
from saying Sikhism because of you now. It's all good,
don't get too worked up on it. But I understand. At least you're pausing now. Right? And that was the idea to share that with you. Yeah, I think we were at the part of the story where you spoke -about how he established his own city.
-Kartarpur. So let's talk about Kartarpur. What was the purpose? So Guru Nanak started Kartarpur. Why did he have to do it if he's running around everywhere, talking to people, having dialogues and changing certain minds too? But his job wasn't to change
all the minds. One of the things which we discover is that he founded a new city because the people and the state, the policymakers at the time, it was more imperial and kings and chiefs, they wouldn't change the policies. So he says, let's look
at the Ik Onkar paradigm. This oneness with a number one, not vagary of oneness, it's spelled out
and let's practice it here. So in that place, in Kartarpur, the description give us, the Yogis came to see him, the Jainis came to see him, the householders came to see him, but very few stayed
there to get mentored. And those very few, is the beginning of what we now call Sikhs. They came from various cities, many came to check him out, many came to have a dialogue with him, but few stayed to get mentored and it did not include his two sons. So the institutionalization of Sikhi,
as we may call it it's really not an organized religion


as we may call it it's really not an organized religion
per se. It was more of what trainings are needed in order to create, change the policies in the world. First policy
is my relationship with the Divine as an outgrowth of that how to live in the community. So this idea of anti-racism, anti-sexism, these are the words we use today. He was practicing at Kartarpur. -Equality.
-Equality is still very much a 20th century understanding we carry
from a universal suffrage movement from United Nations. Because somebody is still deciding that you are equal,
we give you this rights now, because we think
from a legality angle now, somebody is still deciding that what he is saying is, no, you, every human being on this earth is a product of divine gift. So from day one, there has to be zero tolerance for racism or sexism that he practiced in Kartarpur. And Sikhs who stayed there, who got mentored in this, and eventually, there's a transfer of leadership there. And this is the institution of Sikhi, where one individual named Lehna became Angad, and we call him Guru Angad, or the second Guru Nanak, who perfected that. And he built that further in another city called Khadur. So the thing I want you to know is. That every Guru founded a new city. What does it take to plan a city? Think about that even today, we can't even figure out how to plan
our own organization or a block. So architecturally, economically, because the policies were not being


our own organization or a block. So architecturally, economically, because the policies were not being
shifted in other spaces on how to practice this oneness. This is a huge difference between Guru Nanak system that it is not just personal, it has a very large element of community. And not just community an idea, as a utopian idea, but a lived realities. That's why you see the organization of Sikh faith and Sikh people in such organized way, because it got mandated
by Guru Nanak himself to draw out some more context from the time, historical, political context, the Mughals had like,
started establishing themselves. This was where Babur and Sher Shah and all that was going on -in the Delhi area.
-Yeah. I'm assuming that Rajasthan had
all the Rajput kings at war with each other. This is what I have understood
from history. Some had war, some in alliances. -Depends on their allegiance. Yes.
-Yeah. Possibly even the rest of India kind of had that kind of a scenario where it's either the Mughals or these little dynasties kind of up against each other or in alliance with each other. And whenever you refer to policies in what you're talking about
Guru Nanak's time, you're talking about these kings. So the way the system works. So the emperor doesn't own all the land. Kings report to the emperor and chiefs report to the kings. So certain things, the word Badshah, you're a ruler of a particular area that's emperor, but under you, are kings. Under kings are the chieftains. So when I'm referring to policy, this is the areas they lived in. Whatever the local domain was, -they decided the policies.


-Okay. And policies were heavily decided by religious momentum of the past. With religious fervors. They still are very political because policy making is political. They just need endorsement
of the religious authorities, just like today, even in America. Why do they always have a reverend there? Billy Graham worked with seven presidents
in America, regardless of whether
they were Republicans or Democrats. It's true globally. This is why the spirituals so called and politicians so called, they're always conspiring with each other
to control masses. By the way, Guru Nanak wrote this. I actually want to mention
this explicitly. He says people who are just Pirs and people who are just Mirs. Mir is short of Amir, the political head. It's a Persian word.
Both are Persian words. And he wrote this. He is like people who are just doing
one or the other. They actually work with each other to control the masses. And that's the problem. And this is why Sikhs have a phrase called Miri-Piri, which means become equally spiritual and equally political. So you're aware of the both the equivalent of, like, a Rajarishi. Something like that. Which earlier I said was a Raj Jog idea. Okay, now I will let you expand on Guru Nanak Devji's kind of later life. What was happening in Kartarpur? Kartarpur, he's farming. -Okay.


-Kartarpur he's training what we today call next in line, what we call our exit plans. Like as in succession. Succession planning. He is also creating institutionalizations of what we are saying, what is that we believe in. So he wrote those because, you see, in indologies as well as everywhere in the world, people think everything is biological. He is very aware of that. So he's making sure his thought in what he believes in, his experience, gets recorded. And so his kids and their descendants, do not dilute it. Because they didn't get the Guruship. Both of his sons didn't get Guruship. What were they up to? Against him. They started alternative religions,
if you ask me. -Really?
-Yeah. Like, Udasi order, is one of his sons. In fact, there's a great lesson in there, even then, this is what he's teaching through his life, that they may not agree with him. There's no condemnation. But if such a clarity is there, they are not the right next in line to continue the Sikh thought. So that's the level of clarity and love at the same time. Okay, when we began this podcast, I was going to allow you
to continue the historical story in this episode. This episode is too heavy by itself. -Okay.
-So I think for the last section, we'll kind of get into the essence
of what Sikhi is, especially from a modern-day context. And then maybe in the sequel episode, we'll continue the historical story. So for now, let's talk
about the spiritual aspect of it, sir. Where would you like to begin? From the beginning. Guru Nanak's original contribution, which is his thought, we will call today. What is that thought? So he has few phrases. They're called Mool Mantra,


in Sikh tradition. Ik Onkar. Satnam. Karta Purakh. Nirbhau. -Nirvair.
-Nirvair. Akal Murat. Ajunee. Saibhang. Gur Parsaad. This is his paradigm. Everything else we have added, like men have added, who are talking about Sikhi. He didn't say those things. What is he saying? There is only "oneness" with a number one. The identification with that oneness, Satnam is with eternality. "Sat" is not truth. Truth is its interpretation. Sat word means something
which remains forever, which is constant he says,
you want to identify with that one, you have to identify with that constancy. Which means it is not the latest fad and the latest YouTube video or the latest podcast, yeah? Because that's seasonal, they change. Everyone's got their 30 seconds of fame
kind of a thing. So that's the Satnam idea. Karta Purakh is that this entity we believe in, is creative. Karta is the creator, creative element. Nirbhau is actually there's no exclusivity because there is no enemy. We have come up with that otherness, the animosities, Nirvair, Nirbhau is fearlessness, right? So most of the people in the world,
even today, live in fear. Religion actually preys on fear and guilt even today. And when I say prey, it's with an "E." So they'll make you do anything by guaranteeing a spot for you after you are dead, are you coming back
to ask for your money back? You're not. That's why they guarantee everything
after death, because they're preying with an E on your fear and guilt. And Guru Nanak Sahib is saying here that, look, no fear. Get rid of the fear


of the messengers of deaths as well. And every mythology and every religion
has their own version of it. Because that's why we say,
I don't want to end up in hell, whatever that hell is. Because there's a fear when we are politically speaking
these days, we are invoking fear of otherness. So Nirbhau, Nirvair goes together, no animosity and no fear. So these are the requirements, or chiseling is what I like to say. This is a chiseling
of the individual behavior on how to feel the one. Then he ends with Saibhang for example. Saibhang is, it's a Sanskrit word,
"Swayambhu." which means illumination is self now, today's angle would be at some point in my life, I better not be operating on borrowed knowledges. What does that mean? That means I'm not just quoting the latest book or the latest YouTube video. What is my personal experience of that? Is there any self-illumination or is it always citations of someone else? That's the borrowed experience
of the divine. And then he ends with Gur Parsaad, that there is an eternal wisdom whose grace do you feel that grace? That's it. That's his paradigm. If you notice, the whole paradigm is, how do I become like that one? So in Sikh thought, which is really, really remarkable, is we don't worship the one that's the popular Sikhism. Guru Nanak's vocabulary


is I want to become like the one. And he describes the one as this. So if I bring these behaviors, these qualities in my, I inculcate, I meditate on them, I reflect on them, I religiously work on them. Which means as a discipline. Just like we say, I religiously go to exercise, which means you do it with a discipline, with a rhythm, with a cadence,
as we call it today. If I do all of that, I can feel the grace too. Guru Nanak doesn't say nobody is. He says everyone's already Graced. Question is, are you receiving it? Do you feel it? Once you start feeling it, you have become like the one. And that's Ik Onkar. That's a very, very powerful thing. Sikhs used to do this. Most people who are like my, 99% of the Sikh became Sikhs, seven to eight generations ago. And I use this as an example to say this thought
is what they believed in. If somebody changes their religion today, you see how many people get worked up. It's very political and very personal. Even in families, there is ruckus Like this will happen, that will happen. Our forefathers and foremothers did it when they used to kill them
for changing religions. They still did it
because of this paradigm, because they're like, ah! This freeing me from fear. This is freeing me from animosities. I'd rather die, but embrace this idea and live this idea, so they became Sikhs, Seven to eight generations ago That's it.
That's where most people became Sikhs So, it's what like beginning of 1800s? Just 18th century. Which is when most Sikhs
were killed, too, by the way, when they were becoming,


were killed, too, by the way, when they were becoming,
I don't know if you-- Most people are not aware
of 18th century Sikh history, which is what we'll talk about -in the next episode.
-Sure. Wow!
This is what I love about a few episodes. I begin in a particular tangent, and then another tangent becomes so powerful and so intense that I'm forced to say, no, no, we'll have to save that for later. Just want to thank you, sir. You asked me before we started rolling why I wanted to do this topic, and the answer then, and the answer now is to help younger Indians and people of Indian origin understand actual subcontinental history of what we were before imperialism. I think that that's a part of the Internet that needs to be built out. It's not available even in terms of reading material. It's probably there in some books, but there's a huge number
of human beings who only listen or watch content in order to learn. So to end the first episode, I will actually ask you for higher knowledge like this, it's always a very special person who comes on board to share it. And I know that you won't agree when I say that oh sir,
you're a special person. That's why the knowledge
is flowing through you. But for us, you are. So I will just head into the next one
with you, sir. Thanks for the knowledge,
thanks for the wisdom, and I'm really, really looking forward


thanks for the wisdom, and I'm really, really looking forward
to learning more from you. So thank you. Thank you. So that was the end of only part one of this special on Sikhi. I think generally, as a country, we're at a point where we need to relearn our history the way it's supposed to be learned. We need to learn more about Indic religions, Indic philosophy, the kind of thought processes that originated in the subcontinent. History textbooks will never teach you the truth the way a podcast will. And that's the genuine joy of this profession. Couldn't have asked for a more passionate guest than Harinder Singh. I'm telling you,
you're not ready for part two. Part two is even deeper, even more elaborate. But before I let you guys leave, what I will request you to do is one, spread this episode as much as you can on WhatsApp the second request is make sure you check out our meditation app Level. And the final request is follow TRS on Spotify. Every episode is available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world. The inter-religious studies year
has only begun. Lots more episodes related to history, related to culture, related to spirituality coming your way on TRS. 🎶[Music]🎶 🎶[Music]🎶 🎶[Music]🎶


this has got to be this prime minister let me tell you I have now worked with him now for six years my God he listened and by the way if there's anybody who actually will change his mind if you give him evidence that whatever his preconceived view is needs to be changed because this is what the evidence is uh he changes his mind any of you have ever been to the U.S you will find that they have terrible domestic Airline I mean in the worst Indian airline uh is better than their best why does this happen because they don't allow this creative destruction thing to happen whereas we are allowing this creative destruction to happen good guys are coming bad guys are going ILO has gone and done this study or who know what they're doing but a lot of it this is just garbage they made it up because they want to manipulate you in some way and many of these International organizations deliberately do this we've created so many episodes on geopolitics people have come on


so many episodes on geopolitics people have come on the podcast and expressed their opinions people have expressed their opinions on PM Modi the current government the future of India sometimes these opinions have been negative so many people Express themselves on YouTube on social media and I also strongly believe that most strong opinions are backed by loose information usually not in all cases in some cases the extremely well researched extremely well thought out they take into account the other side of the argument as well and whether you're a pro Modi listener of the show or an auntie Modi listener of the show if you're an Indian if you care about where India is going or if you simply care about the subject of Economics this is the episode for you Sanjeev sanyal Works directly with the PM of our country he's a part of the PM office as an economic advisor for the future of our nation people like him decide where our nation goes five years from now 10 years from now especially when it comes to


now 10 years from now especially when it comes to money especially when it comes to the growth of our country this is the kind of conversation you want to listen to before forming opinions about the Modi government or governments in general or what's happening in the world generally I'm not going to speak too much anymore I will let you slip into this economic special of the renway show remember if the conversation gets extremely heavy for you scan TRS Clips are YouTube highlights Channel where we only upload highlights of each episode it will help you sit through the different sections of this episode if you want to increase your attention span though you better start meditating my meditation app level is now live on the App Store on the Play Store go check it out and finally all I'll say is follow us on Spotify because a lot more conversations like this are coming up very soon with a Spotify exclusive every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world this is Sanjeev sanyal


else in the world this is Sanjeev sanyal on the ranveer show [Music] thank you Sanjeev sanyal welcome to the ranveer show how are you sir I'm doing well uh you just told me not to get intimidated by you before we began shooting I wonder why you said that no no people are way too differential sir sir sir Etc in these kinds of things so I said please don't be differential uh honestly you're one of the widest spectrum of personalities like you have one of the uh most elaborate kind of knowledge sets so before this episode I was actually figuring okay should I talk to you about your family's history should I talk to you about economics should I talk to you about your day-to-day life I don't know what I should talk to you about but in saying that we've never done an economic Centric episode on the show so I think that's why we'll dive deeper uh how do you explain economics to a four-year-old well it's


you explain economics to a four-year-old well it's about uh now the four-year-old may be a bit too young okay but I think somewhere around about 10 year old I could explain it that look uh there is a limited amount of resources on this planet um and how do you make sure that it gets used in a way that makes as many people as possible uh prosperous and that we can all have a good life and incorporate new technologies and make progress so how do you arrange all of that is what economics is about okay uh what do you mean by resources resources means you know there's only so much um food to eat there's only so much industrial production uh there is natural resources of various kinds you know minerals water Etc so how do you make sure that you take all these resources and make sure that they are distributed in the best possible way and so that part of it can be done by government for product can be done by markets uh and so on and so forth and how this


uh and so on and so forth and how this Arrangement works is economics okay okay all right um what's a day in your life like like what do you do right now for people who have no clue about what you do specifically with the government can you explain your job to them sure uh I am an economic advisor to Prime Minister Modi so um well obviously that require that's about providing economic advice to how to as I said run the economy and so on uh but since you asked about how my day works let me say there is no pattern at all in it uh because I travel quite a lot right now I'm in Mumbai but I live in Delhi um you know next week I am in New York for a conference in Columbia University so there's a lot of traveling uh then as you can imagine this is a job which is very prone to crises of various kinds so you know you have covet shock so suddenly there's a lot of work related that which you'd


there's a lot of work related that which you'd never imagined he sort of got swayed off into a different direction um then there is G20 and these kinds of things that turn up so it's very choppy um you know there will be days when I really work very hard and then there are times where hopefully a little bit slower and so uh and in the middle of all that I'm attempting to write a book and do other things as well so uh I'm one of those people who uh you have to be very disciplined with this because you have to keep things moving without then being any pattern in your otherwise in the life so it's not like you know some people say I like writing a book at uh I have two hours designated every day to write I have no such thing I mean all my books have been written the chapters have been written you know in one big you know one long weekend I got free and I wrote one whole chapter in that like I worked 16 hours three days


chapter in that like I worked 16 hours three days flat and finished the chapter because that's literally the only way I can do it how did you get to this point of actually becoming an advisor for the government like you you would have definitely studied a lot done a lot and then I'm assuming you would have been Cherry Picked in some form uh well um so I uh so I I studied economics first at uh Delhi University then at Oxford University and then I became a financial markets guy for about 22 years so I uh I was an economist so I'm not when I'm saying I'm working in financial markets I don't mean that I am uh I'm a main line guy who gives out loans or something like that no I'm not a banker in that sense I was an economist and my job was really to just look at how interest rates are moving exchange rates were moving uh credit Sovereign credit risk uh Equity markets liquidity things like that you'll have to explain what these


things like that you'll have to explain what these things mean to like school going audiences fine you know about the share market yeah you know about exchange rate rupee dollar rates Etc yes so my job was try and guess roughly speaking what's happening in these markets and essentially help uh my team to make bets on that okay so uh the other word for it is basically calculated speculation you can call it that whatever you want so you basically knew a lot about Finance you had studied it all your life and you were in a position to be able to pray for Europe's largest bank which is Deutsche Bank okay uh till about end of 2015 and so this was my job so looking at Global markets and not India I was I was looking at markets around the world and basically managing Investments risks uncertainty and you know trying trying to basically make sure that um you know our tanks clients and ourselves were able to make money in this and manage the risks all kinds of shocks


this and manage the risks all kinds of shocks keep happening you know what's happening in financial markets right now banks in the US are failing Credit Suisse is under stress and so on so these kinds of things happen all the time so my job was to kind of keep keep up with all of this um and so that's what I did till 2015 and so you had to study for a living in many ways yes I had to study for a living but it's not academic studying in that sense after the academic training a lot of it is really being imaginative because unlike an academic where you can go and say something and there's not very much skin in the game here things would blow up if you got it wrong so uh you know you burn your fingers a few times and after that you have a lot of respect for markets because they can do things that you can't imagine suddenly happen so uh that's what I did till 2015. then uh um you know I was sounded


2015. then uh um you know I was sounded out to by uh the political leadership whether I was willing to come over and work in the government and so uh I said yes so in the very beginning one second being you're being humble you I want to ask you why you and why not other people in your position like in any field uh there are relatively few uh eligible people so to speak in any field that is the case so well if you if you're looking for uh you know music director there's you know there'll be a relatively small group of 10 15 people uh if you want to do uh you know design I don't know chips or something in that world they'll be in the world maybe 10 15 people so similarly macro economists uh in the world who have some track record Etc isn't a very large Universe uh you know there is a bunch of people like uh KV subramanyam I call former colleague or raghuram Rajan who was the governor if you add


Rajan who was the governor if you add a bunch of these things people like that who's my colleague again right now in the prime minister's Economic Council so you end up with macro economists economists in uh of some standing it comes to 15 people so I happen to be one of those people and this is why people get intimidated by yourself this is the whole intimidation angle not not that we're getting intimidated I'm trying to get to your Human Side okay but but let's go on now I'll let you continue the story yeah so then you know so if you're one of those for whatever reason they decide that maybe he he might be willing to come and work in the government not everybody agrees so I I did because it's a high pressure job I'm assuming it's a high pressure job some people may have other preferences uh working financial markets for example is uh financially a lot more lucrative than it is for working in the government for example uh and so on and so


the government for example uh and so on and so forth so there may be a multiple reasons why people may not want to take it up okay so it's a small pool and not everybody else everybody wants to work in the government people may have ideological or political differences that's another reason they may not want to work with a particular government they may be willing to work with another government so there are many reasons do you do you have political ambition no I'm not I'm a technocrat in that sense I mean obviously I have ideological views but by and large I am an administrator of things so yeah so that's how in early in February of uh 2017 I ended up working in the government but that time I did a slightly somewhat different job I joined the government as principal economic advisor to the FI uh to the finance minister at that time so I was working in the finance ministry and I worked for five years uh there as the principal economic advisor uh so some of your viewers may be


economic advisor uh so some of your viewers may be familiar with some something called the economic survey so I was one of the principal authors of that economic survey that comes out every year so that's what I did and of course uh there were and for people who are not familiar you'll have to explain what okay so the economic survey is published every year just before the budget on the day before the budget uh those of you who viewers who have uh who have been you know prepared for the upsc or uh studied economics at University and so on will be familiar with this document comes out every year it is possibly the most widely read uh document written by the Indian government and uh for the five years that I was the principal economic advisor I was one of its uh main authors uh and after doing that till uh the um the budget or economic survey of uh 2020 uh two uh I then shifted to the new team as part of the prime minister's economic advisory Council where I am now okay uh


economic advisory Council where I am now okay uh you know I get that you're in a different department but in my eyes it kind of seems like a similar job like yeah it is a similar job it is a similar job what you're doing with the Finance Minister now with the PM yes so what is there is some difference I'll tell you uh that job principal economic advisor is a little more operational in the sense that I have to be think about let's say the monthly GST Collections and things like that uh here it's much more strategic because you're working with in a in the prime minister's office so you're thinking about things like even though I used to work for about G20 but I'll think about it more here uh or I'll think about things which may not be purely economics as well so here because that is more vertical this is more horizontal got you so one of the things I've worked on recently which may seem appear to have nothing to do with economics is a report on uh looking


to do with economics is a report on uh looking re-looking at the list of national uh nationally protected monuments so India has some 3700 odd nationally protected monuments um and re-looking at the list to see whether that's a sensible list or not I published a report on this a month ago now this would not be something I would have done if I was the principal economic advisor but here because I am in the prime I am the prime minister's economic advisor which is a more flat across uh cross-cutting a job this is something that you know I um would do okay uh heavy job profile there's a lot to dig like you've already given me like 30 questions to ask you uh this doesn't happen to me at this point in the podcast but let's dive straight in okay um I want to ask you to begin with uh what's it actually like working in the PM's office on a day-to-day basis now what I have understood from the show from diplomats from anyone who's even kind of work


diplomats from anyone who's even kind of work to the government uh I figured that pmod is extremely busy he has almost no time to spare he's always running around and I'm assuming that that's the case with his entire office as well so on a very human level how intense is it really and second question is what's a day in the life like there always new things to fight but then where is the room for creativity where you can think of like how to run the nation a year from now two years now 10 years from now so obviously there is one core team in the pmo that is dealing with the day-to-day issues and they are dealing with the Ministries where also so in that sense it's a boiler room where all kinds of things are going on and I participate in it too but the role I have is exactly what you said thinking about the somewhat uh longer term that's why I get time to be able to relatively speaking to the others do more research


to relatively speaking to the others do more research pick up a topic and write say a working paper and I keep publishing working papers what's a working paper working paper is like uh a slightly more formal thought through paper on an issue like just you said like it could be on let's say uh randomly picking up a working paper I've done in the last few months uh you pick up the patent's office okay the patenting is about all about intellectual property rights and all of this thing and so I wrote a paper saying why India's patenting system should be three four times larger than it is today so you make the case why why do we need the patenting system why does it need to be four times as as large how much money would it take how many people need to be hired so that is not day-to-day fighting this is more strategic kind of thinking so this is the sort of thing that I have the luxury of doing that maybe many other people working for the Prime Minister may


maybe many other people working for the Prime Minister may not have that luxury so I get that luxury the creative aspect like yeah a little bit of space but somebody has to do it so well here I am so technically you are responsible for the criticism or appreciation that the government will get a year from now or two years from at least in some capacity yeah some capacity obviously a lot of it depends on implementation a lot of I mean it's not like just because I said something it gets done I mean many people may disagree the Prime Minister himself May disagree so uh so not that every idea I have finds fruition but yes to the extent that they do uh okay yeah I deserve the criticism or credit whichever way okay I want to put it so when uh trolls it's actually directed at you yeah of course we take it personally okay do you are you guys are you guys aware of like you know online trolling or all that that I mean I'm sure of course I


all that that I mean I'm sure of course I get trolled all the time on Twitter anybody who's on Twitter gets trolled all the time there are a whole bunch of people you know if I say the sun rises in the East how do you know [Music] um what else are you used to reading on Twitter I have all kinds of things I mean by the way I have another life as a historian so um you know there are a whole bunch of people that say why is the economist writing history books so essay then there are people no matter what I say as I said even if I say the sun rose of these they will criticize all kinds of things if you look if you're if you open yourself up on social media you should be willing to get trolled all the time and then there are people who is who are you can see that there has a fake account that has been created for the express purpose of trolling you so it's okay it's part of the game yeah


so it's okay it's part of the game yeah I'm gonna ask you what PM Modi is like to work with and what do people not understand about him as a person so uh I think you know people have this view that he has this preset view of the world and he Rams it through absolutely not true uh if there is anybody who is a good listener this has got to be this prime minister let me tell you I have now worked with him now for six years uh first as Prime as principal economic advisor and now directly as part of his economic advisory team I have been in meetings with other people there and I have been in many one-to-one meetings with him my God he listens and by the way if there's anybody who actually will change his mind if you give him evidence that whatever his preconceived view is needs to be changed because this is what the evidence is uh he changes his mind and that I believe is the greatest trait of a leader that when presented


the greatest trait of a leader that when presented evidence contrary to his whatever may be his preconceived idea he changes his View and I think that is an amazing trait uh so the ability to listen um is I would say his biggest strength okay and that's usually where growth as a leader stops right like the moment you kind of stop taking feedback we stop listening absolutely okay so Prime Minister Modi is all about feedback loops um it is those who work closely with him all of them will tell you he is an unbelievable listener okay um the reason I'm asking about PM Modi and we're talking about self-criticism is uh because I want to ask you if you think that he considers his whole term exactly how he wanted it to go so when he became prime minister for the first time he must have had certain visions of like how he wants to govern the country do you think he looks back at it as like Perfection or if he said no that's this could have been improved


he said no that's this could have been improved that could have been I think I think you'll always think the because first of all he's a person who's always being driven so no matter what his vision was in the beginning I mean I I only have a general view I don't can't look inside his head but I would say that the nature of the job is such that you are being hit by all kinds of shocks all the time I mean covet is one shock then Ukraine war comes along some now global financial crisis is happening turn or may or may not happen but looks like something is brewing so in you are navigating this ship through very very Stormy Waters and it's a very complicated large ship where you could barely tell where the front is on the back is so in this a really stormy messy situation the job is not to aim for perfection you can't uh no leader of any major economy in the world will be able to do that because something is going


will be able to do that because something is going to something's going wrong all the time that is the nature of it you know uh and this is just in the administration of the economy there's also you know elections are happening he's losing and winning in state elections then in the middle of it El Nino effect will happen and drought may happen all kinds of natural disasters earthquakes so you are dealing with an extremely chaotic universe so there is there is no sense of thinking about any rigid perfectionist uh idea question is are you able to navigate through this and get the things big things that you want to do done so for example one of the big things he wants to get done is in physical infrastructure roads airports Etc so throughout the covet thing despite all the disruptions you see infrastructure kept getting built so why because you see basically you keep it going now some of it may also go wrong I mean the you know you know you may end up building an airport


know you know you may end up building an airport somebody or somewhere and it turns out that it's not going to have the traffic you forecast or whatever those things will at the edge things are always going off but it's a question of managing the whole thing believing in your team empowering them and providing leadership when things go wrong that is actually the biggest and most complicated you know you can always have technocrats telling you what to do see I can also have views and I do have views on how the economy should be run Etc in the end uh I'm not the person who takes the political Flack when things are going wrong so somebody like Prime Minister Modi is ultimately a leader not just because he is doing what he's doing but he is also in some sense the person who will be blamed if it goes wrong and he still has to provide leadership through through all of that so he's the person who is taking the risk not me I think mentally you have to be built


not me I think mentally you have to be built like a bull to be able to absolutely this is really uh yeah this is about a character in the end I've often wondered why someone would willingly sign up for a job in politics especially those are political Ambitions uh I'm sure power is like kind of seductive but do you really want this kind of a life where it's so intense and you are going to trade off your mental health repeatedly it's a tough job I'm being a politician let me tell you is is a very tough job I mean irrespective of ideology or anything a party Etc uh being a politician is a 24 7 and very tough job even if you're a local MLA in in some state with uh you know whatever uh it's tough you know your local uh constituents will turn up at your door you know maybe your son needs a job uh daughter has broken her leg and you are expected to respond in some fashion uh it's a very difficult and


in some fashion uh it's a very difficult and of course it's true worldwide but certainly in India There Are No Boundaries people don't I mean I have seen politician friends of mine and we are sitting uh for dinner on a Saturday night after many attempts we finally get to meet and suddenly in the middle of all of that phone call comes from back in his constituency somewhere deep inside some person's car has broken down in some Village in his constituency and he thinks that his Member of Parliament should do something about it you know so there are all this stuff that goes on so you know and at some level he has to respond because come election time that same person he expects him to go out canvassing votes for him so it's not like it's a one-way relationship so so this is a very difficult job being a politician uh I have to say toughest job in the world okay very raw question for you okay most people from my generation are probably even say your generation and


from my generation are probably even say your generation and then even my parents generation which is older than you have now really begun to watch YouTube in order to understand what's happening in the world yeah and especially the country uh is the government aware of channels that criticize them as well yeah yeah okay I can assure you as I said if you're on social media there are enough people tagging you on them so yeah yeah we watch them and it's good good feedback is important okay some of it is honest feedback some of it is ideologically or politically driven feedback so but then that's the filter you have to how do you how do you uh filter it no so you have to take a judgment call and after a while also you know the personality there's some people who will criticize you even if you you know did something genuinely good and they even agree for it and in fact they were themselves advocating those things uh if you do it then they'll criticize you so you just filter


it then they'll criticize you so you just filter those out but then there are people who give genuine feedback and we take it all the time because uh I mean by the way YouTube is only one source there's mainstream media still is a part of that how important is it now because honestly the on-ground truth is that fewer and fewer people are watching the news and even news journalists feel so no no so that may be the case but you see some of the stuff on the YouTube still comes from mainstream media by the way even if if somebody may be commenting on it and pulling material but mainstream media does still provide the uh sort of the base on which many of these discussions happen Okay so it is not the case that they have become irrelevant secondly are they uh I don't think they're irrelevant but they have needed to have changed and they have changed to some extent and they are also evolving by the way just like everybody else they are also making their way through uh the


else they are also making their way through uh the world and new platforms are popping up as well all the time including yours but there are other platforms as well like a and I has got uh Smitha has prakash has got her fantastic show you are doing one uh then Arnav has his own style her debating style so there's a whole mix of stuff that's going on um and and at every point in time there are different markets right there are different people getting information on different subjects from different ways so there's no one way it's it's a it's not like the old days you picked up the newspaper sat in your balcony City and got you information from that newspaper you are being bombarded with you know your alumni uh groups uh WhatsApp is also a source of information debates are happening there also people are giving some of it a rubbish some of it is good so I think we have all become much better at uh filtering garbage or being able to tell what is true


garbage or being able to tell what is true and not true then we were say five years ago where any and every WhatsApp uh forward was seen as Gospel of Truth I think most people are now a little bit more skeptical anything that turns up in their WhatsApp group um but on the other hand some of it is fun and some of it goes around some of it is conspiracy theories conspiracy theories are also Fun by the way I'm not saying I don't my I don't I don't dislike watching them you know aliens are landing and all that kind of thing but back to the matter is you also have to go to take a you know with many pinches of salt so you know you get feedback of all kinds of kinds and some of it then you have to filter and that's the job so because you're with the government sir does India have an Area 51 version of itself uh I can't tell you if I had to I have to kill you okay or take out a flashlight


have to kill you okay or take out a flashlight and then erase my memory yeah uh I'm kidding what I do wish to ask you though is what's up with the government what are you guys thinking about in terms of the future of the country and I'm going to give you a very rudimentary angle based on what I have learned through the podcast okay um the general consensus after speaking of like all the Indians that I've had on the show is that everyone feels like the current government is the government that should be there considering the world's current scenario and the world is honestly in geopolitical turmoil suddenly they say that there's decades where nothing happens and then there's months where decades worth of things happen all together and I feel that the last few years have been a series of months like that where too much has happened now in the present day scenario we feel that the current government is exactly the government that should be there that's the general consensus of course you have your


that's the general consensus of course you have your uh people who don't agree with this okay which is primarily Urban Elite that's honestly what that's true and as a media professional as a podcast I'm not a journalist I'm not educated to be a journalist but as a media professional I feel that if I am in this position of extracting information from people like yourself or working with the government extracting information from people maybe you criticize the government I need to stay as Centrist as possible irrespective of what I am emotionally or what I am as a human but I also feel even that side is pretty much Centrist now for the sake of my job because I think it's the ethical thing to do uh what I have understood geopolitically is that when a country basically grows economically when we become richer you also become geopolitically more powerful yeah because our media and whatever countries history is has already kind of done the job for soft power but when it comes to hard power it's


soft power but when it comes to hard power it's about money at the end of the day and if we study success stories like China first they became Rich then they became powerful now please correct me if I'm wrong so there's two ways to become rich one is if you have the resources like minerals in the within the country and the government finds it and we start Mining and you know exports in case we make money through that I know how rudimentary this is and by the way that is a dangerous way because very often the large powers of the time were taken inordinate uh interest in your existence as Iraq found out for example so uh trying to become rich on the basis of Natural Resources is uh really is a dangerous game okay uh so I I would say that ultimately the strength of an economy is based on having a much more widely based okay a system obviously depends on the size of the country and so on uh see Europe and there's people like you in front of me I get


there's people like you in front of me I get embarrassed for you and talk so much but it's my job as a podcaster to just give you youth context okay uh the other angle is um is it true that if we have many more entrepreneurs in our country and many more businesses in the country it'll directly impact the economy and make the country richer absolutely so is the goal of the government to kind of sprout out a horde of new entrepreneurs absolutely so let it be absolutely clear and this is not what I'm just saying this is what Finance Minister uh ramanji says this is what Prime Minister Modi ji also is saying and many other senior members of the government are saying so is the following we the government's job is not to be running businesses our job is to create a climate which is stable enough in terms of inflation being under control or the financial system being reasonably regulated and also to provide you with the infrastructure the physical infrastructure the roads airports


with the infrastructure the physical infrastructure the roads airports Etc to be able to do your own thing so it's about ease of living it's about ease of doing business and so on so basically make your life as easy as possible so that the next generation of entrepreneurs innovators thinkers Etc can go and do their own thing without having to think about you know these nitty-gritties so this is the broad idea it is getting easier this I'm speaking as an entrepreneur having done multiple businesses it's progressively gotten easy over there then good that's great feedback because this is what we are trying to do okay so our job is to try and make it easier now I'm not saying that we're getting it right every time and there will be places where we are trying to help you but actually we are not all kinds of things may be happening all the time and something may help one bunch of people may make it difficult for another bunch of people so we are making trade-offs all the


of people so we are making trade-offs all the time but the idea here is not that the the government is should be in the business of doing government except where there is a market failure for some reason entrepreneurship doesn't Sprout up in that area or doesn't deliver the good then yes there is to be a government intervention but otherwise we believe that the energy of this of India has to come bottom up it is not top down and our job is to create the space so let me since I'm not a big Cricket fan but most many Indians understand Cricket so I will explain it in cricket terms the government is BCCI okay it's a job of BCCI to uh create the match organize the match make sure the field is there the the that the TV rights have been sold the tickets have been sold uh two umpires have been sent there to make sure it is not the job of BCCI to play the match it's the job of the players to play the match the entrepreneurs and the workforce absolutely


the match the entrepreneurs and the workforce absolutely so our job is to make sure here are the rules here is the field here is the here are two umpires but the actual match is played by the the player so the same way in the economy the job of the government is to create the infrastructure organize for Regulators Etc which is umpires create the set of rules and then the players are the workers the entrepreneurs the all the other professionals uh or basically the entire Farmers whoever is there again after a lot of probing on this show I figured that education is actually the goal when you're talking about bottom up no that's also one part of it you can't you cannot think of any one of these things separately education is also important uh but health is also important okay so is um you know making highways so so there's all kinds of trade-offs that have to be made so one without the other is meaningless even the health and the highways actually come from money which then comes


and the highways actually come from money which then comes from the workforce which probably arises from education yes and no what I'm trying to say that is a very linear view in fact that is a bad view of thinking about things yeah so you see all of these things feed on each other the world is a complex place okay so if you just if you just invest in one thing you will not be able to for example um you know Cuba is a country that invests well in health okay okay it has a decent health system for some many decades now uh but it's not a successful country in any other field so if you have a very uh uh sort of uni unilateral view then you will not end up being a successful country yeah so we have to create you know the an economy is like an ecological system right so if you only have tigers then the tiger will starve if they're now dear and the deer will start with there are no trees the tree will not grow if there are no no


the tree will not grow if there are no no Bees or and so on you know if you teach a kid only how to bat he can't become a cricketer same logic same logic so you have you cannot just invest in one thing and in fact going back to your very first question which was or what is economics this is what economics is about it's about these trade-offs and of course every little bit thinks that they are the most important thinking so the academic thing is education is the only important thing the doctors think health is the only important thing uh the uh Airlines think uh civil aviation is the only important thing capitalist thing whenever everybody thinks something Bankers think the money is the only important thing but in fact all of them are important and the game is about balancing their requirements and keeping the thing going damn okay um one of the protocols about the show that I didn't tell you uh I don't know why I'm surprised was that uh I encourage you to disagree with me and


uh I encourage you to disagree with me and correct me on points because uh the goal of this podcast for me uh and for the audience is to like learn better through fair enough being schooled School me sir uh so so you now understood what we are trying to do so now the thing is if it's about balancing all all of these different uses how do you go about it okay so one way is to have a bunch of wise men sitting in something called Planning Commission telling you how this whole thing is supposed to be run this was the mindset that we had before 1991 reforms that there were all these wise men sitting in Planning Commission in Delhi who could plan the economy so that is why that was the Socialist system a more strong version of that was done in the Soviet Union um where you know the Communist Party decided whatever how everybody ate slept did everything else so that's one way of doing it the other way of doing it is allowing a mixture


other way of doing it is allowing a mixture of things and yet another way is that allow purely the markets to decide so whoever has the money decides now the way we think about it is here is that we we got rid of the Planning Commission precisely because we came to the conclusion that there were no such thing as wise men who knew everything about everything so Planning Commission was shut down it was set up with somewhat different uh institution called Niti ayok which is a policy Think Tank now what happens is we allow basically the economy to generate various ideas entrepreneurship Etc and the market by and large decides how things will evolve and the government what do you mean by that by that it may mean supposing uh you have a whole whole bunch of people they decide that look I can create the next uh big thing in smartphones so five different companies entrepreneurs try to create different kinds of smartphones some succeed some fail that is decided by whom that is decided by


that is decided by whom that is decided by the market I.E by consumers deciding what is good and bad now that doesn't mean the government has no role in this the government still has to auction Airwaves and other things it may have to provide some supporting infrastructure in some areas and so on so there is a role for government in this but it is not to go out there and design the cell phone so this is why uh systems that are allow for this to happen have historically proved to be vastly superior then top-down systems where wise men decide where to go the reason for that is it allows for creativity happening at multiple levels in unpredictable ways because the world cannot be predicted so you allow all kinds of things to happen some succeed some fail and then here comes the tricky part some part of it will always fail that is the whole point if you if you're allowing a whole bunch of people to take all kinds of risk risk means that some part of it is


of risk risk means that some part of it is going to fail and how an economy deals with this churn an important part of this so this is the reason we have something called insolvency and bankruptcy code so just because you failed is not a bad thing you tried here another guy tried his product was better or for whatever reason succeeded yours didn't your company shuts down it doesn't make you a bad person failure Is Not a Bad Thing therefore somebody going bankrupt does not mean is a bad guy in fact he's an important part of that churning process so till uh 2016 we did not have a proper insolvency in bankruptcy system so there was uh first of all socially uh there was a lot of stigma attached to somebody going bankrupt okay so we have tried to change that culturally secondly we created a process you go bankrupt take your company into the bankruptcy process you leave the company goes bankrupt it pays whatever has to be done to the creditors and that person can


to be done to the creditors and that person can go back and set up another company and May Fail again it's okay so this is a very different cultural change than the old system of you know bureaucrats deciding where the world should go and tells everybody again how how it should pan out this is a much more fluid Messier system as well but to give you an uh sort of live example of what I'm talking about Jet Airways was the largest private uh airline in the country two or three years ago it failed it shut down it disappeared done however has the civil aviation sector in India become worse no the other companies expanded out very quickly new new Airlines La Casa Etc have come in vistara has become big meanwhile we have also privatized Air India so this sector is continuously churning but your experience as a user of civil aviation I'm assuming has continued to be good or probably even improved so you can see a system that is churning Messy as it may look


system that is churning Messy as it may look for individual Parts the system as a whole actually is healthier as a result of allowing these failed companies to keep dying out and new ones to come now this system by the way is a system that was pioneered to some extent by the US the U.S as a result of oh this kind of capitalism but there is one sector interestingly where they don't allow this journey to happen and that happens to be interestingly their internal civilization Market it's Aviation the aviation so the the airlines industry in the in domestic Airlines industry of the US is ironically not a sector where this creative destruction happens even though they they claim to allow it as a general principle now the result of this is for all to see you if any of you have ever been to the US you will find that they have terrible domestic Airlines I mean they are really pathetic I mean in the worst Indian airline uh is better than their best why does this happen


uh is better than their best why does this happen because they don't allow this creative destruction thing to happen whereas we are allowing this creative destruction to happen good guys are coming bad guys are going this is you know and every time somebody goes bust you'll hear oh my God so many jobs when yes at that point in time it is hard and that why there is a temptation to try and go back to some sort of a top-down uh control model but except under extreme circumstances you should allow this to happen break away a little bit it's the honor of my life to get to learn from people like you and uh you know I'm sure the audience is feeling the same right now so the depth to which we've reached the podcast let's continue here okay talk at like this level okay um and I'm gonna ask you very silly questions which I hear at House Parties okay I think I represent that audience go for it all right uh lots of startups want to


for it all right uh lots of startups want to incorporate in Singapore and Dubai rather than incorporating here because a lot of them eventually like the entrepreneurs want to sell off the startups to bigger companies and usually you have to pay a lot of tax when you sell off your startup if it's Incorporated in India so it's a very active conversation in the entire startup ecosystem of India yeah I'm sure the government is aware of this absolutely uh specifically for the world of startups what's up and and uh a startup iron it's a meditation app we're a part of uh the whole startup India thing and and it's it's been extremely helpful and I highly recommend Founders to look into uh what the government is doing but I'll actually let you shed some light so first of all the business of startups wanting to sell out is a perfectly fine thing I mean that's part of the the creative destruction I talked about this is perfectly fine the question is your point is why do


perfectly fine the question is your point is why do Indian startups need to go abroad to it they should be able to do it here that's your main point and we absolutely agree we should be able to do it here we keep trying to fix things along the way uh this is a bit of a race to be fair and so you have to understand Singapore Dubai Etc are competing with us they're formidable competitors so uh so when we get to some stage they have moved on and so on so but we need to get our act together I'm not denying the fact that we this is a game that uh that whether it's the tax officials or the officials who are looking at an MCA on regulations Etc uh you know we have dramatically improved from where we used to be but you know we get feedback all the time and we we will We Will We we are also competitors don't worry we we will compete okay cool uh you know that thing we spoke about uh how either


you know that thing we spoke about uh how either you've to rely on your natural resources and you said no no that's not how your thinking should be yeah I'd like for you to shed some more light on that keeping in mind this whole lithium ore that's been found in Kashmir and I think gold was found in Orissa if I'm not mistaken so so you're absolutely right that natural resources are important and yes in some stage level we are ourselves using the memory whether it's the water soil uh minerals and so on however I would like to point out that if your entire economy particularly if you're a large population Etc is entirely based on a natural resource several problems occur out of this first of all um countries that have you know one natural resource say oil uh historically have not become very developed countries they've been rich countries but not developed countries for example so for example uh you can have a country like Kuwait uh rich but then becomes unidimensional you see you have


rich but then becomes unidimensional you see you have one resource you don't have to work very hard at it and what happens is their entire Society then becomes uh um uh sort of Inuit to not having to work with too hard and unless you're using this resource to try and build your skills etc for a Time Beyond oil there is a big danger and by the way uh in Kuwait this is a big debate uh this is also true in Saudi Arabia and UAE and by the way the rulers of those countries are fully aware of this issue so look at what say for example the UAE is doing uh Dubai interestingly is one of the Emirates out of the United Emirates which actually doesn't have very much oil most of the oil is in the others particularly in Abu Dhabi so what do I do they actually went out and tried to create a sort of a Urban hub for business for trade for finance and so on so interestingly uh they had no resources but they interestingly if we


uh they had no resources but they interestingly if we go past oil you know at one point let's say we all go solar or whatever it is there will be a time when we go past oil uh interestingly the Dubai is the likeliest person to survive out of that shift because they have built capacities and other things so it is very important that you know you don't get stuck with one thing yeah that does not mean that we don't want to find natural resources I mean lithium is important because we want to move into the next stage we need a lot of storage lithium is an important thing for storage you don't want to be uh dependent on say China or some other country for it so this is important but again I come to the point is a healthy uh Forest is one where there is a tiger but there is also trees there is also deer there is also porcupines so uh similarly a healthy India is one where there needs to be Services there needs to be industry there needs to


be Services there needs to be industry there needs to be mining there needs to be construction activity there needs to be farming and so on and so forth so it's the mix and the continuous evolution of that mix uh that's uh that's the game correct me if I'm wrong but say the moment a natural resource is found an economist like you would say okay great we got this natural resource let's use it but then we have to fuel the rest of the general wide scale devices so it's not like all the natural resources found we're rich baby no no it's absolutely not in fact that's very dangerous because first of all you are you it's a one-time especially if you're dealing with mining there's some natural resources that may be renewable but mining for example is a one-time use you dig it up it comes out it's the end of that so um you know so you've got to understand that you are using up a resource which may be a perfectly reasonable thing to do but do understand that


perfectly reasonable thing to do but do understand that future Generations now do not have use of that resource because you used it up so use it but try and value add on top of it I'm gonna say something slightly controversial please correct me if you disagree okay uh you know the general narrative all over the world is that India's actual greatest resources its youth the reason I disagree is because I feel India's actual greatest resource is widespread internet so I I think I'm again trying to break you away from this idea of silos okay okay uh internet without the youth is useless the youth without the internet is also useless so don't as I keep coming back to this idea of an ecological view of an evolving ecological system that all of these things feed into each other so the internet is absolutely critical but it is a critical because it is able to uh mobilize the uh the youth in multiple ways um you know whether they're getting information or they are providing information in its


getting information or they are providing information in its both goes both ways um so I think the key here is to understand that um each one of these things is important only to the extent that it is feeding the wider system any one of these things in its isolation is uh won't take you very far okay it's like 11 players on a cricket team you need our fastball or spin bowling absolutely and how how they play as a team in fact Cricket still allows for outstanding individual performance uh let's say uh if you take football or hockey or something there uh it is uh more difficult to you know one outstanding player to uh you know to adjust for everybody else yeah okay got it yeah um I'm just trying to dig out Crystal Clear information which is why I want you to constantly yeah no problem uh also this is our first economics based podcast okay so uh anyway uh I'm asking you the questions based on all the geopolitical yes we've had have you heard of two gentlemen and


we've had have you heard of two gentlemen and Rajiv Malhotra uh I know uh I know the second I cannot I don't know much about the first both these are interested I know the name but I don't know much about that all right yeah with the both polyvaths both are from kind of the world of engineering and science uh both are very very well versed with history uh and now they're both geopolitical observers and especially on the show but generally on the internet I have not seen uh people with this much clout for the sake of their opinions for example there's lots of people Express their opinions on the internet these two gentlemen get respected every time we bring them up fair enough so uh does the government track minds like these on the internet and say that okay you know maybe these guys would kind of be useful it was in some capacity so there's a large number of people who we take feedback from and sometimes directly from them sometimes indirectly from them so you have to understand


sometimes indirectly from them so you have to understand again uh somebody like me inhabits a uh an ocean of intellectual activity and uh you know we are feeding on this all the time right some of it may be directly by virtue of engaging them in a conversation one to one or putting bringing them onto a project uh and in other other places it happens more diffused you know I may read their paper book Etc so yes so you know I can tell you photoshop both these guys are aggressively hungry to be a part of uh so I'm sure yeah sure I mean I as I said I uh I know Rajiv Malhotra I've not read his latest books but I have in the past engage uh so interacted with him okay so I have some general idea of his views we had him on the show two weeks ago where he said that uh AI is Yo he's an artificial intelligence engineer like that's his actual profession uh and he said that where AI is at I'm sure


and he said that where AI is at I'm sure you've kept up with what's happening with chat gbte and all that uh it's going to change multiple Industries I see a changing Tech like coders are using it to improve their code content creators are using it to improve content and this is just level one it's gonna keep going deeper uh the thing is these are American companies and America owns the algorithms badly have you watched The Social dilemma it's a Netflix documentary yeah and I I watched it and I'm sure the government also thinks about algorithms and these kind of absolutely I also and I tweet about this stuff all the time yeah I'd love I'd love for you to shed some light on what your view on this algorithm problem is okay and I'll I'll tell you why two reasons one I feel algorithms intensely govern human emotion in the modern and human opinions and the second reason is Rajiv so spoke about how uh it will govern even geopolitical narratives and


uh it will govern even geopolitical narratives and it's a massive geopolitical weapon so when you're using chat GPT it's actually American it's a fantastic tool it'll help you in your profession it'll make you more money but at the end of the day you're strengthening an American algorithm and ideally there should have been Indian algorithms doing the same thing I've also spoken to some AI Engineers who claim that there is Talent available in India but nobody knows why Indians have not been able to build something like a GPT by this point so many things are going on in India by the way AI is also being done in India many of these American countries are developing these things in India as well so there's all kinds of things going on so it's not like there is a box and this is happening it's a messy world with all kinds of inflows and outflows and influences going on now is it the case that algorithms are uh uh are something we should pay attention to so


uh uh are something we should pay attention to so first of all let me be clear what is an algorithm basically an algorithm is a an equation or set of equations which allows for certain patterns to be uh play out okay so this is what it is so that the audience is clear now in this particular space one of the dangers here is there are many one of the dangers here is that people assume that because there are a set of equations they are somehow objective truths right now the the problem is that an algorithm can be set up to or may end up actually uh getting swayed in a particular direction because um uh and be influenced by much more subjective things but so for example uh I'll take something that people are already familiar with people all go there and use Wikipedia you know everybody wants basic information on something they go to Wikipedia now what happens is in fact Wikipedia is edited by a group of editors okay and over time a hierarchy of editors has been created


over time a hierarchy of editors has been created who are ideologically tilted in a particular way you had Vikram sampath on your show I am there are Wikipedia entries are continuously tempered with okay so all viewers in there you know my Wikipedia entry is uh you know not exactly it's tilted in a particular way deliberately now this is obvious right if somebody investigates and goes to the history they can see that you know there are uh systematically a bunch of people who are messing with it in an algorithm this is not very clear and people who are doing chat gptm and they may ask a question about uh something they will get a certain answer and the impression they will get is that this is you know objective truths but in fact it's not objective truths the algorithm has either been already swayed in a particular direction or has over time uh been trained or even externally nudged in a particular direction uh so the the chances of manipulation are not trivial and


the chances of manipulation are not trivial and this is why and then what happens because there's so much of this going on and it's getting infected every aspect of life that in fact this just kind of spreads and spreads and then your reality is driven by this somewhat managed uh algorithm that is being used to manipulate you I'm I'm not sure what these two gentlemen are afraid of but I'm assuming that is roughly what they are talking about and we are fully aware of this uh but you know we can't be afraid of this problem we have to engage with it I mean there's two aspects one is what you're saying where people create bubbles around themselves Echo Chambers yes where even you know sometimes then you have human relationships also get uh affected because of your politics absolutely so say someone who's extremely anti-modhi will surround themselves with anti-motion so this is only an ideological field it can happen with many other things as well it can be for example a


other things as well it can be for example a technology Frameworks or any anything an opinion on a football player yeah you'll you know but these are opinions but they can be also uh things which have for example you can sway for example does a particular kind of vaccine work or not and that has enormous implications about what kind of vaccine becomes a standard right you know so all kinds of games are played geopolitics can can be played like this that's the other angle that they're speaking about yeah uh they said that because Char DBT is Incorporated in America eventually it is going to get powerful enough for the American government to also have a say in how that algorithm is developing in the future parallelly China has been developing these algorithms for a while now this sounds so silly right we just say oh they've been delivering these algorithms but I'm specifically talking about AI Bots yeah uh China so it's not the case that we don't have capability of doing AI Bots and


we don't have capability of doing AI Bots and we'd have in various areas using AI Bots okay the question is Let's Be also clear that as as things stand the U.S is in a position to impose on large parts of the world the standard right like for I'll give you one example let's take Twitter for example we have also tried creating coup Etc and they work in local languages Etc but at this juncture Twitter cannot be created recreated easily by say in India because you need everybody to be in the same place for Twitter to work I also need the Trump to be there I also need Biden to be there I want uh Rishi sunuk to be there I want the Japanese Australian Prime Ministers be there I want the movie stars to be there I want the football players to be there I want their business and at this juncture it's much more unlikely it's not impossible it's unlikely that something done by an Indian company will take over that space when there is a clustering effect that


over that space when there is a clustering effect that happens from Global acceptance so same thing with Wikipedia you can complain I complain all the time about Wikipedia but the fact of the matter is it is what it is and knowing it's despite knowing its biases I'm also a user of Wikipedia if I want a quick information on you know a place or some scientific term you know that's where I go to even myself right knowing that it may not be exactly the true but Mota Mota I'll get an idea what the whole thing is about so what I'm trying to say is that yes there are segments where we may have the clout to do it but we cannot say that oh we will do what China is doing is close ourselves out first of all our political system is not set up for doing that secondly in the long run you mean you mean like a first World closed World system so first of all we're not set up to do that and since we are not set able to


do that and since we are not set able to do that it means that our population our youth in particular will go and use anything that is the which is creating rapidly clustering in its own right we may be able to do it in segments you know say yeah creating an AI bot to answer questions on the GST system now I have a closed system there I may be able to but a general open system like chat GPT so far right now we don't have but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of the risk and that we should not be pushing back in multiple ways to this so I'll give you another example where it is not algorithm so algorithms at least Is Happening Here There is much more subtle ways in which this is done so for example there is something called ESG you know what this ESG is so let me explain ESG is environmental social and governance Norms now this is something that globally but particularly Western governments are pushing to make this a part of all kinds


pushing to make this a part of all kinds of decision making so supposing there is a fund that is going to invest or a large companies are going to invest they are supposed to take care of something called these three years the environment social and governance Norms to take decisions okay now sounds like a good thing to do we should all agree environment social governance things are good things to do now what happens however is these are actually subjective things okay what is good for social Society is there's no objective uh thing there are at least at the margin a lot of it is uh uh basically somebody's opinion yeah so what now we will do is we will now uh create a bunch of people who will impose on you uh what those Norms are so I so let's say I accept that those Norms are good then you know a ESG rating a company will pop up somewhere and then it will deconstruct you and tell you this is what you should be doing and now because I'm stuck


you should be doing and now because I'm stuck with this being I've accepted this framework I will have to take decisions in a particular way so this is a well-established system already but it's uh you know you have uh think tanks in the west uh like for example uh vdm in Sweden or Freedom House in the US or Chatham House in London they are in this business of creating Global narratives so you and I may think that certain things is actually a gospel of truth but in fact it has been put inside our head and these things can be quite powerful um and so for example we recently had redempt came out with a A list of uh great democracies in the world okay uh it's a 140 count countries now we are the world's largest democracy we are rated 108. okay just above Pakistan by the way okay if there is a list also some of these guys have done of academic freedom okay in in that list we are rated below Afghanistan I mean how Who does these things


below Afghanistan I mean how Who does these things but you see if it is not managed if you are not paying attention what happens is that you may not know that this index even exists but that index goes into another index which goes into this ESG norm and then your life is being run by these indices and this is happening very systematically and I have written very I've been writing about this for a while we need to pay attention to it and now what will happen is that you have now let's say an AI chat chat GPT or something that gets trained to feed on this so let's say in a few years you could you could actually type out is India a democracy and chat GPT has been trained to go and look at these specific places and come out no India is not a democracy even though blatantly you can see that it's a democracy but chat GPT will tell you that it is not because you will then create an in completely alternate iterative reality based on these things


in completely alternate iterative reality based on these things so and so this is why I I think this is something we need to be very careful about create debate about it and push back because if you don't do this actively you will be deconstructed and told what to do it's a form of new colonization yeah exactly this is what uh they said barely to break away I just want to say that you know how in school you have a crush on a girl for the first time uh sometimes you have a crush on a guy it's a man crush it's not a sexual Crush right or a romantic crush and sometimes you just have a crush on someone's mind I currently just developed a crush on your mind this is this is a very widespread kind of uh opinion that you've given and this is what's missing from the internet today and this is exactly why podcasts are growing because you get to explain things in this nuanced manner so I have been very much engaged with


manner so I have been very much engaged with this debate for some years and even in things which may seem like this is uh completely objective somebody you know the ILO has gone and done this study or who know what they're doing but a lot of it this is just garbage they made it up because they want to manipulate you in some way and many of these International organizations deliberately do this and I've just published a working paper uh just last week uh which says reversing the Gaze why reversing the case so all these go these International agencies love to tell us what to do so I have reversed the Gaze and looked at what their data methodology systems are and I'm sorry to say much of it is garbage [Music] and uh and they have like almost kindergarten level mistakes and many of them so you know so at the start of the podcast we spoke about the critics of the government um I think it is important for any government to be criticized to a


important for any government to be criticized to a certain absolutely but it becomes messy when the critics of the government refer to only the west and take these studies and then use it as gospel in order to criticize the government yes and by the way there are mistakes in our system the data systems also but there is clearly a tilt in a particular direction so yeah if I that there are mistakes in the world is not new but if they were all mistakes which are scattered around some are good some are bad that kind of thing that's not the case in all the investigations that I'm doing the the mistakes are always to the to the negative side the problem is always getting exaggerated rather than uh minimized then you begin to develop a somewhat of a suspicion case of some sort I mean in fact in many areas okay in order to explain this point a little deeper how does the Indian government look at this whole George Soros situation and also you spoke about how some


situation and also you spoke about how some of these situations are uh you effectively said that it's kind of geopolitically governed absolutely okay so there are powerful countries or powerful governments out there powerful interests because they sometimes those interests may be at loggerheads with their own government so for example let's you mentioned George Soros George Soros is a billionaire I think he's an American citizen of Hungarian origin uh he has historically uh used the his billions of dollars to essentially affect certain kinds of narratives in the world and also effect you know changes in government and all these kinds of things he pushes for now you you know as a country that's been colonized repeatedly and for hundreds of years we have a right to be suspicious about all of this and when he comes on television and says that you know uh India you know is wrong I'm going to put a billion dollars behind trying to we need to be extremely careful about this because it


need to be extremely careful about this because it is effectively somebody threatening our threatening regime change in our country right and especially given the known histories uh you know he has in the past caused a lot of economic damage in the world um and he's open about it uh he is himself by the way he claims that he is in this uh in this because he's promoting open societies democracy Etc because uh he um experienced the um Jewish Holocaust personally but in fact his own history is quite suspect he was 14 15 years old and he survived the Holocaust himself by essentially turning into an Informer uh and he's he he he is admitted to this on television so you know let's be very careful about it he was no heroic Auschwitz Survivor he was an Informer and then he escapes to the US becomes a very wealthy uh investor and then he uses this resources to carry out things which he believes is true he may genuinely believe these are


is true he may genuinely believe these are uh that he's doing good that I don't I know it's quite possible that he really thinks he's doing good but the fact of the matter is that is the point about democracy why should a person who's not even in the country have the right to tell us what is or isn't correct and use enormous resources then to sway us in a particular way uh as Indians forget whether I'm in the government or you like or dislike the current government this is an extremely dangerous thing which we must resist okay first of all Sanjeev so you give me too much to think about you've taught me a lot over this episode thank you uh pleasure yeah there's there's too much more to kind of mine out of your head I feel that your one of those people who needs to be asked the right questions and then like the nectar comes out uh I want to ask you so much more but because we have a bit of a shortage of time


because we have a bit of a shortage of time the one question I saved for the end was that as someone who's working with the government now what are you thinking about in near future in terms of reforms I think you highlighted infrastructure in this conversation that that's what PM Modi is uh really passionate about but I'm you know how we spoke about objectivity and subjectivity I feel often even in positions of leadership there is a certain amount of subjectivity and subjectivity can be positive for example if someone feels very intensely about one cause they'll put more Focus Energy power into that keeping all these aspects in mind what's going to happen in the next five to ten years for India and I've asked a lot of people this question I feel you're the right person to ask so next uh in the zero to five year Horizon I think we are very clear we're going to build out world-class infrastructure so we are here in Mumbai just look around you this now by the way has the largest


around you this now by the way has the largest concentration of cranes anywhere on the planet more than Shanghai Beijing or other places people tell you about largest concentration of cranes in the world right now Mumbai and you can see it just go to a tall building just look at the amount of construction that's happening we are building a massive Metro System all in one shot uh I think that the radial line that goes from colaba to uh or cuff parade all the way to seeps that on day one is going to be one of the most crowded Metro lines in the world um similarly we're building the coastal Road at the same time we are connecting through to the mainland through the harbor link there's a brand new airport coming out on the other end which will be significantly larger than the existing one so imagine the amount of infrastructure and this is just Mumbai and you know in Delhi also we're building a massive new airport and other things are going happening all the


airport and other things are going happening all the country so build out world-class infrastructure um and so that's uh that's the first thing that we are doing and and and that's already in the way this but if you're taking the five to ten year Horizon there are a bunch of things we need to do the top in my list other people may have other lists I'll tell you my list top in that list has got to be you've got to fix our legal system uh you may be aware every family everybody who's listening here somewhere in your family extended uh family there will be a case that's stuck there forever and ever and ever this is gonna be ridiculous you can't have a legal system like this if you want a modern economy you want delivery of Justice you want enforcement of contracts this is ludicrous we've got to fix this so in my top of list of things we need to solve in a decade Horizon has got to be this and it will take many uh steps uh there