this idea of being called the Middle Kingdom we are the ones that link Earth with heaven he's taken it very seriously but if China does not export to the world then it's the end of the China story and if countries consciously and in very large numbers stop buying from China and truly diversify their suppliers then how are they going to redeem themselves so they are in a very very precarious situation right now you anticipate the people are not going to continue beyond a point why will they why will they do you know China has spends more on internal security than on the military outside their leaders are very scared about protests at home have you been to China yes and what's the vibe and I went to Wuhan hmm when Prime Minister Modi went a few years back uh he this was uh this was a summit between Prime Minister Modi and president XI and this also ties into the next question that you asked on why the Wuhan virus because I've seen that City firsthand


Wuhan virus because I've seen that City firsthand the full City and I saw the people they were very friendly I saw the police that was less friendly they chased us away not letting us do a lot of things you needed permits for everything we we faced the struggles that we faced in countries like China while reporting there countries like China being there are some countries where media freedoms are restricted you need a lot of paperwork to do anything so then in 20 not even 2020 actually 2019 December somebody in my team came and said there's some disease you know that's spreading in China and such and such thing has happened and uh we picked the story one day then two days later he came again and said this is happening so we started reading and it did not add up I or my team we do not have an anti-china agenda we just stumbled upon a story and we investigated and went deeper and deeper and we found that there's a there's a lot of problem here


that there's a there's a lot of problem here that the world is not talking about and because I had seen that City uh and to see images of Wuhan locked up and people standing in queues and hazmat suits uh students not getting what they wanted was a bit jarring for me also the year 2020 on a personal front was a very difficult one for me and then the year that followed I mean vivall I'm sure seeing um very bad days during the pandemic uh we've seen people in our family end up in hospital both my children were down with kovid for no fault of theirs what did they do um we've lost relatives friends and how do you get away with this I mean it wasn't personal but now it is basically calling it a bio weapon I'm I don't know if it's a bio weapon all I'm saying is that the virus spread and the Chinese government did not do enough to a won the world and if they have nothing to hide then why don't they let


they have nothing to hide then why don't they let an investigation happen why have you destroyed data samples why have you not given access to that Laboratory what are you hiding if you have nothing to hide so the least that we can it can be an accident it can be a bio weapon it can be a lab-created virus frankly I don't have an answer because I don't have proof but the least I deserve and you deserve and everyone else in this room deserves is to know why we went through that that horror for two years how can we let someone get away with this and call him to meetings and shake hands with him and say everything is okay hmm it's not okay with me okay I don't know about that but I definitely think some powerful people get pissed off with you like honestly I'm being very Royal but has have they ever gotten in touch saying hey we're pissed off with you why'd you say no they do complain obviously there are complaints uh but


do complain obviously there are complaints uh but but I think if no one's upset and offended then you're only doing PR what happens of those complaints if they have Merit then we uh course correct most of the times they don't so we let it be I did something on on say for instance Malaysian palm oil and how palm oil is in everything that we're eating you know the food that we eat from outside and really impacts your health and so on and so forth and orangutans that too I'm going no so uh no but we got these long letters from the palm oil Association palm oil is harmful for health you may not like our story but it's a story so I mean that's a small example but I'm just saying that a lot of times people register a complaint for the sake of it and okay we've seen it and okay we are happy to publish your version but please stand by our story okay uh coming back to China let's close that Loop okay we have


back to China let's close that Loop okay we have a separate Channel called TRS clip so this is the long form podcast which goes up on this channel which is beer by myself and we have a separate Channel where there are only highlights for uh you know audiences that don't want to consume an entire show and by doing this I've both marketed that channel and two I'm closing this Loop you're so smart Let's uh close this uh China Loop what do you think is gonna happen in the 20s and uh probably when the 30s begin I think there's a real risk of war with Taiwan I think that's that's uh topmost on their agenda they really want to they've made it about their Prestige and they want to do with Taiwan what they did with Hong Kong I've been to Hong Kong too I've seen the beautiful city uh that it was and now what it has become um so so I don't see um the expansionism abating I I think that it's it's only this


abating I I think that it's it's only this whole while they their diplomacy is changing tactics you know they used to be called The Wolf Warriors they would go everywhere say all sorts of things to people now they're toning it down taking a softer approach even projecting themselves as victims and saying we are not the wolves we are dancing with the Wolves which is America and the rest but I think there is a this this attempt to power grab and grab land is very much there the worrying part is what is happening on the border with India that situation is far from resolved we've had multiple rounds of talks uh despite everything China remains our biggest trading partner um and that's not a good place to be in uh diversification and bring building Alternatives cannot happen overnight it'll take time so we have to buy that time keep up our defenses and become self-reliant or Atman as they say in the government uh I don't see the Chinese uh political thinking


government uh I don't see the Chinese uh political thinking uh shifting significantly is actually a strong geopolitical move it is it's an out and out geopolitical move but to be able to be digested by the masses you have to Brand it in a certain way that's effectively what it is we need to stop relying on China because but we can't stop relying on China not yet over the next decade at the height of this whole galwan thing I remember and this was also during the lockdowns and the intermittent whatever periods and I was at a neighborhood toy shop and there was this kid he must have not been more than 10 or 11 years old would come to buy something with his father you think he wanted to buy a racket and every time the shopkeeper gave him something he's like either made in China but but he said Made in India um so as as a concept we may all agree that we don't want to buy those things but what is the alternative are we creating enough options


but what is the alternative are we creating enough options so it's going to take time I think okay uh moving on while we're speaking about borders what's your take on Pakistan's current and future scenarios Pakistan is a is a Perpetual nuisance is how I put it but right now they are uh they are in a in a bit of a spot because see their traditional support base has been the US and uh while you see how Prime Minister Modi is going to be going on a state visit to the US this summer and we are like a strategic partner a comprehensive strategic partner whatever everything's going great we are working together on semiconductors military it wasn't always like that for the longest time the Americans kept India in play but also kept India in check and to keep India in check they kept promoting the pakistanis uh it's a fact we've all seen how when we were developing missiles in the 90s the Americans imposed sanctions on us on ISRO on drdo on others but the


us on ISRO on drdo on others but the pakistanis were doing whatever they were doing with the AQ Khan Network and they just Bush senior and then for a brief while Clinton also looked the other way they just it was I think the Turning Point really was the kargil misadventure from the Pakistani side until then they were given a lot of leeway and they were given a lot of money now what's happened is that money the source of that money is drying up and now they're depending on the Chinese for that money but the Chinese money is very very tricky to get it is a debt trap and they will not think twice before pulling the rug from under your feet you know these Chinese power companies that operated in Pakistan they did not get their bills so Pakistan was plunged Into Darkness for the longest time you must have seen about the you know Nationwide power Cuts so those things happen then the Pakistani State invested a lot on the Taliban now the Taliban


a lot on the Taliban now the Taliban have a country to run and the Taliban are showing them that they have they also have a mind of Their Own they are behaving like the Taliban and that poses a serious security challenge I don't know if you followed the news but in in recent weeks there have been cases of gunfire at the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan they're fighting back and they're saying if you want us to curb terrorists on your soil the Pakistani Taliban you will have to pay for it and you'll have to pay this much money where will they pay from they can barely run their country so the economy is is on the brink of collapse the source of money is drying up um Pakistani is also for the longest time depended on countries in West Asia with their whole Muslim ummah Brotherhood thing but India in the last few years has really strengthened its relationship with Arab states we look at UAE you look at Oman you look at Saudi


UAE you look at Oman you look at Saudi Arabia it's they are not going to be on a point support Pakistan and Kashmir the Turkish did but look I think what we did with the Turkish earthquake is is a master stroke we send Aid so we are neutralizing slowly all of the pockets of support that the Pakistani regime had and now they are this there's so much disturbance within you know Imran Khan every day they say he's going to be arrested He Still Remains a very popular leader there's unrest in Balochistan there's unrest there's it's like the perfect storm that Pakistan is going through and we don't want the state to collapse because we can't change the geography we can't change who our neighbor is and that all of that tension will at to some level spill over what's your geopolitical prediction is it too complicated or even deeper no no this is fine I think but I thought I I touched too many threads people love this kind of content okay


too many threads people love this kind of content okay yeah geopolitics is really uh kind of awaited by college students now and by teenagers which is what's schooled when I was a teenager it wasn't the case didn't know what's up internet's made people smarter through information and now it's the it's the age of opinions so anyway go on what's your geopolitical prediction because I feel it's one thing to talk about what's happening now and there are very few people who can kind of I don't want to say predict the future because it sounds gimmicky but that's basically what I'm asking you to do about Pakistan like where do you think it's going in this decade and you're the right person to answer this because of how much you have to observe because of your job yeah so where is Pakistan going I think it's going uh deeper into the China Club um and uh that is the new challenge for the West because they don't want this to happen at the same time they don't want


to happen at the same time they don't want to give money to the Pakistani General so how do they they control the Beast without feeding it more so the world wants to make sure that Pakistan does not become another North Korea it also doesn't become another Afghanistan but Pakistan in itself I mean I think the world is very late in realizing how much of a threat it poses and there is no such thing as a good terrorist and a bad terrorist for the longest and the kind of money the Americans have pumped into Pakistan is insane they've given them weapons they've given them practically everything they wanted such a skewed policy and now they're doing the same thing with Ukraine you know Ukraine is being supplied a lot of ammunition that is coming from Pakistan Poland and and the UK and Canada they've signed deals they're working with the pakistanis it's it's very it's the mindset that because you don't share a border with Pakistan it does not pose a threat to you is so


it does not pose a threat to you is so flawed because 9 11 happened to the U.S and it did not happen from a country that was bordering them but I think policymakers are always looking at um at managing problems and not solving them you're basically saying it's been a volatile country ever since its Inception and therefore going forward as is the case with volatility it's unpredictable what will happen but it's likely that it will be a volatile situation it may break up for all we know the country may break up this there's just too much too much tension and the fault lines are really beginning to show do you have prediction for roughly when no okay I'm not into predictions you do believe that borders constantly change as is the case with history right like borders constantly change over the course of human history yeah but after the what has changed a lot but I think uh in the last 100 odd years with the concept of nation-states emerging you know we're not kingdoms


of nation-states emerging you know we're not kingdoms anymore we're not like countries uh operate with in multilateral forums with rules that apply and most in the 200 hour countries that we have in this world barring a handful most do follow those rules so I think going forward climate change will change more borders than geopolitics okay um you know a thousand years from now the human race still exists they're gonna look at our generation and our great grandparents generation is roughly the same time because it's a thousand years in the future yeah but they'll watch our podcast and they'll know it's not the same which it might in the next thousand years and internet wires get destroyed and data gets destroyed on memory cards you know that's an actual possibility for comet hits wow yeah and comets hit the earth regularly it's just not spoken about enough and cause a lot of damage and look into the work of Summer called Randall Carlson sorry that's we're going we're going history uh okay uh but I still


going we're going history uh okay uh but I still I still believe that during our lifetimes we are going to see some borders change yes yes we are seeing borders change you know this whole thing with Ukraine it's happening uh uh yes what is that changing in the same way that I asked about China and Pakistan I want to ask you about USA uh primarily because you have a lot of fans from there as well so one what's your geopolitical commentary on it and uh second what do you think is the future third what's your message to the fans oh let's start with the fans thank you so much for watching thank you I'm always amazed that people want to hear what I have to say so that's great um what will happen to the USA uh the US is a is a fabulous country if you if you've been there you would great places to eat lovely weather most of the times very interesting people there are obvious problems too um you're more likely to be killed by a


um you're more likely to be killed by a teenager with a gun in the U.S today than in Afghanistan that says a lot about what they're turning into the fact that they have denied half of their population a basic right on their own bodies is unbelievable I don't have a strong enough adjective to use here but really uh to say that women do not have the right uh to abort an unwanted baby is taking the country back to Stone ages why do you think the source of that thought has come from where do you think the source it's politics okay this is all Republicans Church you know life pro-life but this is not pro-life a woman is already a life form and what by by forcing a baby on her you know you are ruining one life and potentially the life of the child who is going to be an unwanted child into this world and medical science is Advanced enough to know at what point it's okay to abort I have very strong views in this and I since you've been


very strong views in this and I since you've been discussing content and all uh I did a series of reports on abortion they got no viewership foreign but I think that's it's a subject that must be touched upon it's not okay for so many women to suffer uh when when childbirth is not a woman's doing alone but but in nine times out of ten she has to suffer the consequences of it so for a society that calls itself forward-looking developed it's a huge blot on the US um the third issue is because everyone knows the positives anyway you know what's going great that they're they're on top of their Tech game they're doing great they're businesses that really is the whole concept of taking the moral High Ground even when they have no feet to stand on they just tell the world they lecture the world what to do how to do it um they have immense of power I mean everyone talks about what NASA is doing I'm not sure how many people can name the space


I'm not sure how many people can name the space agency of Japan or China or you know um if if a child is picked up for a NASA course it's in the newspapers in India but if they're doing something with this row they'll probably make it to the school board or if Kim Kardashian is doing something exactly exactly so that's off power and due credit where they deserve it so they have it and they have hard power they have the military um they try to dictate the rules of how the world should be run um but they also have a very cute understanding of what the sensibilities of this part of the world they've not really figured it out I think Americans also sometimes tend to you know as they say they use a sledgehammer to crack a nut they shot down a 16 balloon with a million dollar missile they're really not thinking sometimes it's funny so they have they have some obvious problems I think that whole superpower status is slowly eroding because the world is


superpower status is slowly eroding because the world is beginning to see the double standards I mean how can you lecture other people on rights of minorities when blacks are suffering in your country um are they in the past a lot of a lot of these things were not said now they are and now the whole world is looking for an alternative narrative and for spaces where you can say these things and say them openly I think the West has for for a very long time tried to tell us how to be what to eat how to eat how to think what to read Maybe we're done with it um but there's still a lot of people who'll agree with aspects of their version of social sciences yes in India sitting in India absolutely and will still apply to Indian problems which are extremely unique to our country and our geography and our history and so you know when they took over Iraq um and this is from a book that a journalist wrote there was somebody who was a volunteer or some


there was somebody who was a volunteer or some worker in the Republican party in San Francisco and he was asked to do something with the traffic department in Iraq and he didn't know what to do because he had no experience so he went to the website of the traffic rules for San Francisco and copied them for Iraq um it does it doesn't work uh so what works in America may not work here that is not to say that they don't have some great institutions and good Concepts and great places to study um all I'm trying to say is that it's not right to think of everything western or American as the gold standard my reading is after meeting a ton of Americans again you can't generalize but for the most part at least the ones that travel are are relatively friendly but they're just unaware of what's happening in the rest of the world a little bit and that's probably because of the media in that country and uh also I do believe that American problems do affect the rest of the world


that American problems do affect the rest of the world therefore Americans are more focused on American problems and politics rather than what's happening in the world which prevents them from having a bit of a worldview when you talk to Europeans it's a very different scenario they're kind of aware there is a way Stark difference when you meteorologists there's a clear Trend that people in developed countries tend to look inwards and are not interested in what may be happening elsewhere whereas people in the developing world like an average Indian is is any day more aware of not just the local and National politics but also International Affairs compared to an average American yeah uh and I don't think that's that's gonna change you can't you can't like shift culture yeah um okay that's it that's the end of the podcast wonderful how is it for you very good okay uh I don't think I've done complete Justice to this conversation which is why I invite you back the next time you're in Bombay or whenever


back the next time you're in Bombay or whenever you uh think it's the right time to be back on the show uh I feel like this was just one big icebreaking session honestly and I hope that you had fun I did thank you so much and uh I hope your audience likes what we discussed and I hope your uh numbers and metrics show that this is a conversation worth repeating or having again but it is you see how it goes in the middle of the episode you asked me about uh whether or not I found my headline for this particular episode uh the headline is your name because people just want to hear what you have to say that's what podcasts are uh and before I let you go I will ask you one last question maybe you can answer briefly or in a long form if you wish you said that uh you believe more in trusting a combination of intuition and data rather than just being completely data driven that's a very interesting thought and I I bring it up in the end


thought and I I bring it up in the end because this question is honestly close to my heart and I forgot to ask in the middle of the conversation but uh I believe in the same thing that I feel like if you just allow data to dictate all your decisions um you'll end up with a little bit of a robotic result which will lack some kind of nectar you need for getting the best possible results I agree I think every year so many students go to MBA colleges good bad not so good all over the world um and while the campuses may be substantially different teachers quality of teaching Etc they're more or less studying the same case studies the same economics the same maths right then why is it that some of them end up becoming great star CEOs and leaders of companies who change their industry While most others are just doing a basic day job because those few took risks uh the best example that I've read so far is that of Steve Jobs had he followed a market


is that of Steve Jobs had he followed a market analytics and what his team told him there would never have been an iPod there was no market demand for a gadget that stores songs and lets you listen to them but he wanted it he went with it and it changed how we consume music for the whole world so I'm not saying that that you can base your decisions on only intuition but what makes a leader Stand Out is how he processes the data and the trends and the feedback and what what of himself or herself he puts into that that is where intuition that is where gut feeling that is where conviction that is where the risk-taking appetite comes in and we need that if we don't have it if we don't take risks if we don't say okay while all of this does not add up let's give it a shot because we won't know what it will be if we don't then you're not you're not making anything new yeah and this is what AI can never replace this


yeah and this is what AI can never replace this Nuance thank you uh be back soon genuinely really nice talking to you and I'm going to ask you spicy and deeper questions sure sure no but thank you and I hope uh this episode was fun for you it was thank you so much for having me here thank you that was the episode for today I've wanted to bring on journalists for a while but the honest truth is that I felt I didn't know enough about the world in order to have a high level conversation with journalists until now the podcast has been kind enough to my mind in terms of making me meet some incredible people getting to learn some incredible things getting to learn along with you guys that's what I love about my job but I finally reached a point where I feel capable of speaking to a journalist and extracting the best possible content for you guys I'd like to know from you guys in the comment section who else you'd like to see on the runway show


else you'd like to see on the runway show please drop your comments tell us especially from the world of Journalism whose opinions would you like to listen to and what topics would you like those journalists to speak about we will listen to you folks about Guest recommendations there's another intensely good geopolitics podcast that's coming up pretty soon make sure you look out for that one oops did I say I think I said that there's a lot of incredible guests that are coming up on the runway show you are not ready for some of these people all I'll say is download my meditation app level from the App Store the play store to get your mind ready to absorb some incredible knowledge but also follow us on Spotify every episode of TRS is live on Spotify 48 hours before it's live on any other platform we are just getting started even though it's episode number 400 maybe I don't understand mathematics or maybe I'm just a Serial Optimist Booyakasha we'll see you soon baby [Music] thank you


because you must have heard that there are these whirling their wishes you must have seen in Turkey yeah and what does that mean it's very interesting it means that it is a line from the Quran which is God said be and it was he created the world just by a command has been writing poetry in uh for Laila and Laila also then writes on a piece of paper her name and his name the man comes and gives him this letter that she has written majnu tears it and he throws away the part which says Layla and keeps only the part which is much new and they say what are you doing why are you doing this and he says because you don't understand he says that is when the lover and beloved are come so close one name is enough for both you don't need a second name some of the greatest artists in the world have been inspired by Concepts from the world of the sufis the sufis have existed much longer than people actually think they existed


existed much longer than people actually think they existed mohsin razakhan sir who's a professor of history at Jindal University is our guest today and he says that Sufism was possibly present in another form even before Islam that's how old Sufism is from a cultural perspective 2023 is all about inter-religious studies on the runway show this was an epic episode because ever since I saw India's Ali's work Rockstar in specific I was extremely inspired to learn more about Sufism and why so many artists so many singers so many musicians even like A.R Rahman himself are inspired by the stories and the philosophies of Sufism this is a very special very deep episode with mohsin razakhan for more episodes just like this make sure you follow us on Spotify or Spotify exclusive every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world before I let you slip into this one just want to remind you that my meditation app level super mind is


you that my meditation app level super mind is now live on the placed on the App Store make sure you go download it you'll get a one week free trial if you use the link I've given down below this is our first episode on Sufism on the runway show enjoy yourselves guys thank you [Music] welcome back to TRS thank you ranveer how are you I'm great and looking forward to this episode I remember before we recorded any episode you said that you were very keen on speaking about Sufism on the podcast especially because it's a India first audience we do have an international listener base uh I honestly don't know where to begin this uh conversation about Sufism sir why don't you start off with the story how did this begin what's the pre-context wherever you wish to begin right so you know when we Sufism is um the heart of Islam actually because uh Sufism is about love love is at the core of it and it's about uh the Oneness of humanity and the


it's about uh the Oneness of humanity and the Oneness of the world basically the story of suvism begins from even before Islam likely yes yes that is what many people believe so so the term Sufism comes after Islam and the term technical term is those who are following the Sufi path okay and it's very interesting where the word Sufi comes from because this is a very good question which uh often students ask where does the word Sufi come from because they made theories of this right because Sufi some people said comes from Sofia the Greek word Sophia means wisdom and from this we get the term which we are used to philosopher then it's a beautiful term the lover of visitor philosopher but not Sophie philosophy philosophy wow but the thing is that this is not uh really to be honest most likely we don't know exactly where the term comes from the other belief is also that it comes from Safa Safa is in Arabic means clean pure that is we use the term also


means clean pure that is we use the term also safai safai means so they are as if they are but not likely not even from this term likely and there's one more theory that this actually comes from the term suf means rule and they used to wear to show their poverty they used to wear a harsh coarse wool garments a cloak these people Who start calling themselves Sufi and so it probably comes from the Garment that they used to wear so what happens is that as I said to you you know that is the basics of religion do not satisfy some people whether people could be Hindu people uh whether Vedic people could have been um Christians could have been Chinese daois some people's Soul just has a deeper Quest lined up for itself exactly and these also is related to somewhat to civilization that is as civilization becomes more complex more complicated some people don't have to work all day for their living they have more free time and that free time actually leads to


more free time and that free time actually leads to this search for meaning and this curiosity and this you know existentialism which we call you know this what is what is it did people leave their families who become sufi's Badness this is a beautiful question because uh uh in Christian monasticism you're often leave your family in Heretics and Aesthetics will leave um but not in Sufism and this is actually in some ways similar to Hinduism in some way similar to uh vedantism that is what started happening in India also was something similar that is when Buddhism comes and Jainism comes these are also religions of renunciation that is you become monks you leave go to the Forest right Etc and people were getting concerned about it and that's when people start saying no you can stay in this world with the your worldly obligation and still fulfill it that is the message of the bhagavad-gita right nishkama Karma what is nishkama karma nishkama karma is that without


nishkama karma nishkama karma is that without having desire in your heart you do your duty do your Karam do your duty without having to that is you are still in this world but detached from this world you are fulfilling your obligations as a father as a son as a husband but you are still detached from the rewards so they stayed with the family but were still following supervisors exactly so Sufism believes that unlike say Catholic priests you don't have to stay a bachelor uh and even in Hindu thought you can be uh brahmacharya is good but you can also be a grihista and still follow the bhagavad-gita's and similarly in Islam also they believe that you should stay a part that is when you're young of course you may not uh be immediately married because you are somebody student disciple again you have to have a Sufi Master just like you have a guru who teaches you the principles but you have to at some point marry


principles but you have to at some point marry also and have children also uh because you have to stay in this world and the path to actually serving God Is by serving Humanity because humanity is the reflection of God therefore by serving Humanity you serve God and so you have to stay in this world you should not be completely detached you should also uh uh be married many most of them married there are some exceptions like bullisha or nizamuddinolia but by and large they married but how did the movement start was there like a leader who spread the word yeah so what happens is that as this as more and more people start doing these kind of practices and they were doing it some were doing it on their own some were also influenced by Christian monastics in the Middle East some were possibly influenced by Buddhas so Hindus also there was also influence of mannequins a large number of people judaic also people with a lot of influences but what happens is that some


of influences but what happens is that some schools or what we call tarika develops we use this word also tarika in India but tarika actually means the way the path so each School becomes a tarika away and then you have silsilas still means a chain that is from Guru to shisha that is from peer murid who's called a master and then his disciples who are called murshid they follow in this and what is peer peer actually literally means old man in Persian wise man wise man and but in it means the master also in in Sufism so so different peers and so their particular practices came to be associated with particular schools in India they were four important schools you might have heard the name also chistia uh starting with in ajmer and um the fourth is nakshbandi and I'll explain later what they mean uh so one of the big man in this area is a guy who lived in Baghdad his name was context in terms of how long after the prophet's


context in terms of how long after the prophet's death was yes yes yes yes very important it's a very important what you said just said because Prophet passes away about 6 32 from according to what we know 632 A.D or CE however you want to call it nowadays Common Era and these practices start the earliest you could say starts with uh Hassan al-basri maybe around 690 700 Etc that we have records of uh and it becomes quite popular immediately in kufa in mostly in Mesopotamia in Iraq the area that we call Basra and uh they start multiplying you know in number uh it happens slowly uh but within a couple of hundred years it takes over the entire Islamic world uh in fact you must have heard sometimes this thing about a guy called halaj Mansoor halaj you know in India also in a lot of the Sufi poetry of bullisha Etc you hear this name who started saying I am the truth now this in Islam would be considered shirk it's a


this in Islam would be considered shirk it's a big crime because you are saying I am God but what he was saying was not exactly I am God he had achieved a state you must have heard it also in in the thought of shankaracharya you know ADI shankara which we call shankara he he has this idea that uh it means that uh you are that what is the meaning of this now it's very mystical you are that you are what he's saying that you are God you are part of the universe you are part of uh Brahman and that means the whole of this universe including everybody and everything in it is one in modern days we would say this is moonism not monotheism monotheism means one God bonism means everything is one this is a state that you achieve after a lot of meditation yeah a lot of meditation called self-realization basically some I don't know whether this is equivalent of Nirvana or some stage before Nirvana but yes it was probably like


stage before Nirvana but yes it was probably like to believe it is Nirvana Nirvana is a Buddhist Concept in Hinduism we would say Moksha this is a kind of a state of but it's the same thing you're right the same concept the same concept he meditated up to the point of yeah so he was actually very interesting he was probably either they believe he was of zoroastrian uh Origins his father versus priest and he started meditating and he he used to consider very interesting he used to consider Jesus Christ to be a Sufi Jesus was a Sufi according to him and he became a big admirer to the point that people thought that he was not actually anymore a Muslim but had become a Christian but actually he was neither of these he was still following Islamic practices but he started meditating so much he went so deep that as I said to you what happens is that when you reached that depth you begin to realize according to IBN Arabi that actually


begin to realize according to IBN Arabi that actually everything is one and thus boundaries of the self collapse sufis called the self as nafs your yourself or your ego is nuffs according to Arabic so for example the nakshbandi don't believe in any music they are more Orthodox they believe that the zikr should happen in quietness you should not have any singing or any kind of zikra or even any kind of uh what is called dancing whirling because you must have heard that there are these whirling the wishes you must have seen in Turkey yeah and then and they're singing yeah and what does that mean what does it mean it's very interesting it means that it is a line from the Quran which is God said be and it was he created the world just by a command it's it's there in the Torah also in the in the in the Bible also that God said let it be and it was you know it comes from there showing the it's kind of a mystical term


showing the it's kind of a mystical term which the sufis also use and and uh you know so associated with that are also um many things for example the term what is Kuda where does it come from [Music] the one who came himself yeah who who came himself created himself and actually that story is there in The Vedas also that story is there in many cultures because uh prajapati or pashupati or whatever you want to say the primordial man you know he how is it created he creates by sacrificing himself to himself that is the first sacrifice in The Vedic sacrifices right so the from his uh then different groups of people come out from his mouth comes the Brahman Etc so he creates himself because there has to be a beginning here right so there has to be a beginning moment and that beginning moment I mean has put it beautifully you know [Music] uh if there was nothing God would be there it's very mystical because also and his youth


it's very mystical because also and his youth used to go to a Sufi Circle that's what I'm saying it was prevalent all over the medieval world everybody used to grow even galib who we think of as a modern kind of poet he and his youth also used to go to a Sufi Circle so so this concept was there so in Arabic kind of popularizes it as I said about the 1200s and the other famous figure in this time period is Rumi you must have heard because his poetry is very famous in the west now everything the film Rockstar was based on Rumi's writings like even if you actually go into the story of Rockstar with Ranbir Kapoor uh a lot of the scenes have been inspired by Rooney poetry even bullisha is very uh inspired by Rumi and actually it is the same thought is there in advaitha for example you've heard this term you must have heard this term in famous not this not that not this not this that is


not this not that not this not this that is what is God not this not this not this what is uh Ultimate Reality and bullisha also has that in that song you must have heard of rubbish that's a song of bullish I gotta ask you a little bit about me yeah sure so what was Rumi this is a very tough question uh but a very good question also so uh was at this peak period of Sufism he's born around let's say around 1200 and he gave or take a few decades there and he is born in um in what would now be considered uh the border of Afghanistan and um Tajikistan Etc and then he migrates across Persia and goes and settles in a place called konia it's now in modern day Turkey and most of his poetry is in Persian but he also has in some other languages he has also written Turkish Etc and in Turkey he's a very big deal but he's also very big deal in Persia because he writes in Persian


big deal in Persia because he writes in Persian and in India also he's a very big deal and his again um he's uh very syncritic he is again very metaphysical he has a master called Shams of the brace and a lot of the poetries In Praise of his master and he's he's saying constantly that look you know this true faith can be found in any religion that is uh you may think of me um as you want to think you may think he's saying to the Muslims I am Muslim also but I'm not also I am a Christian also not also I am another Turk nor a that same thing rabi shergill is using bullish is using the same thought in uh uh in his this [Music] who am I you know so he's kind of again emptied himself of he's reached that stage of fanaa you know where um but he still does his prayer his fasting and um so a lot of his poetry is very beautiful you know um um I could read and


very beautiful you know um um I could read and extract but we don't have the time right now and I'm sure anybody can find it online there's a lot of his poetry available so he's part of that same thought process and he influences also a lot of uh uh sufis after him including somebody as modern as a moment Iqbal from Lahore who um uh in the 20th century uh that you know your life should be spent in Ishq that the core of life is Ishq of love I think a lot of roomy poetry applies to a romance between two romantic Partners a man and a woman like if you actually read Rumi poetry you could easily dedicate it to a girl or a girl could dedicate it absolutely absolutely uh but but that is not that's not the intention that's not the intention the intention is to dedicate it to God so the lover is God so in Sufi poetry it's very interesting the the Seeker usually the man is actually the female


the the Seeker usually the man is actually the female because he's seeking the God and God is the male in much of this poetry but how to explain it to people in the language that they understand for example most of our love stories which we think of now today are actually Sufi Tales he's ranja he's a Sufi Tale because their sufis could not explain it in any other way Sunni mahiwal is actually a Sufi tale is actually a Sufi tale why don't you just in short explain the hiranja story I can explain that but before that I'll explain the Laila majnu story because this is the original story okay sure do you want to add anything about Rumi you know he um his poetry is very metaphysical and mystical and and nowadays people also perceive it as romantic but this is not really it's not really romantic because the thing was there was no way to explain to Common People what actually the love of God is common people cannot understand it to explain


of God is common people cannot understand it to explain it to people in their language what is divine love they converted it into Ishq of this world love of this world love in this world and that is that is the love of Truth the true love uh is with God now because he's using these metaphors to explain people sometimes things it's only about romantic love similarly when he's talking about intoxication and alcohol and drinking is not intoxicated with alcohol he is constantly Intoxicated by the love of God he's in another intoxication he's intoxicated with something else is it true that he used to uh have a meditation where he would twirl and then once he was kind of in that meditative State because of the twirling he would write poetry yeah see it's not clear whether he who told or this practice started after him or this was part of his practice but this was not the core of his practice he had already reached through meditation a very high level even before this uh twirling


a very high level even before this uh twirling this uh uh thing and this dwelling also is very symbolic that is you are almost like the planets you're evolving in fact the usually the Sufi Master sits in the middle or stands in the middle and you twirl around him on this axis and that's why the Sufi Master is also often called means like it means he's the pole Koto means pole around which the world the spiritual world revolves you know the universe revolves that's why he's called the utub you know um have you ever tried that kind of a meditation I have never treated I've never I've never tried it but uh it is a form of prayer meditation it is a form of Sufi meditation one of the forms of his school this is one of the firms uh so yeah so he uh so so when he's talking about intoxication or when he when uh when a Sufi Master is saying stay in your prayer rug with wine it doesn't literally


in your prayer rug with wine it doesn't literally mean throw wine on your prayers rug you know it means your whole being has to be intoxicated with that love of God yeah with that love of uh passion and can put it beautifully in a share by Iqbal you know in the world of love in the realm of love make your place [Music] create a new world a new morning and a new evening in this that means change the physical order of the world itself this is because Iqbal believed that you can actually be in ish even when you are so passionately involved in something suppose you follow some project very passionately suppose you really are in this world you want to be the best sculptor you want to be the best poet you want to be you are deeply in love with even some political cause you are in ish and he says that this life is superior to a life of mundane existence like whatever you do do it with a passion that ish that passion will make


with a passion that ish that passion will make your life beautiful meaningful happy and joyous only that life is worth leading which is Led with passion this thought you know and of course Rumi is taking it from others um I have a lot of Muslim friends and viewers who actually write in to do a podcast on Sufism specifically is it fair to say that especially Muslim youth is oriented towards it because again the whole world Now talks about Sufi practices like meditation uh like Faith you know for lack of a better word manifestation and all these things it's kind of in line with the spiritual aspect of Sufism so is it making a bit of a comeback with Muslim youth it's making definitely some uh come back it's not only making a comeback uh here but it's also making come back in the west uh or not a comeback in fact an arrival uh debut in the west yeah yeah yeah so thanks to people like Rumi and others and India's Ali and uh air Rahman


and others and India's Ali and uh air Rahman is actually a Sufi in some ways yeah he's been on the show oh okay yeah so he's quite a Sufi he's quite he's quite deep into meditative practices yeah he he highlighted a lot he highlighted his other songs I don't want to talk about it on this one because I think that's a great sequel to this episode we've done yeah but uh I you know I think he's one of the people at the Forefront talking about Sufi ideas yeah and from what I understood from this entire conversation it's so much about Unity One Oneness Brotherhood Divine love and often when you find yourself chasing Divine love you become a more loving being even towards other human beings because you realize that Oneness is present in them as well absolutely um as I as I said to you you know the story of Laila majnu I wanted to just mention that maybe it could be the last yeah section of this podcast absolutely because


the last yeah section of this podcast absolutely because this is how Sufi Masters kind of prepared their ideas through stories exactly so go for it sir okay so uh you must have heard this song also foreign on Bollywood also uh what does this mean I kept calling out to you until I became you um something like that yeah something that is I was so immersed in you that I became you there's a beautiful verse of uh Amir khusro's here I became you and you became me one means me month in Farsi tumanshudi uh mantushidam to Manchester I became the body you became the John you became the soul of that body so that after today nobody can say that you were different and I was different this is the core that is when you become so devoted to your lover when you become so devoted to the God Almighty that you I and you become one I and God becomes one yeah all this applies to romantic relationships oh you just gotta bring it up


romantic relationships oh you just gotta bring it up like this is something great things I could tell uh the love of my life which might just be God fall you know yes maybe there's no such thing as a love of your life correct could be God um or maybe you are one of the great Romantics you know so well my girlfriend thinks so too uh no but but but go on yeah is this tale really interesting what does Lela mean it's very interesting Leila means the night so she was Dusky she was dark like the night and in Arabia this was considered quite beautiful and majnu falls for her and I falls deeply in love their kids but once Society finds out about it it's considered shameful in those days and so they are separated but madhuru's real name was Chris and what happens is that he starts going crazy from a worldly perspective but here you have to understand majnu represents the Sufi he starts roaming around in tattered clothes goes into the forest


around in tattered clothes goes into the forest loses himself Etc his um father begs him but he says Noah may I fall deeper in love I don't uh I have actually not Fallen deeply enough he goes in front of the Kaaba and he begs God to put him even more in love rather than less I want to drink more deeply of this wine I want to be more intoxicated well what happens is that he doesn't listen to his father his um they even try a prince comes called nofal this version I'm telling you is nizami's version he was a Persian poet this Prince says I'll help you and he fights a battle with Lala's tribesmen but majnu doesn't fight in the battle and so they are very disappointed they're saying we fought for you but he says no I can't fight with you even though you're fighting for my love because my heart is on the side of my beloved so I cannot fight against her tribe I have to fight on


cannot fight against her tribe I have to fight on her side rather so so they say that this man is totally mad and but no false still defeats the Leila's family but he says that the father still refuses even after being defeated to give his daughter and so they say okay you know we can't take a girl by force that is uh like taking a bittersweet it's not uh acceptable and he marries her off to another man called IBN Salam uh this drives much new even crazier he starts totally living with the beasts in the jungle Etc this is very similar to Rockstar story yeah it's something very simple but go on okay so maybe it is from where he's been inspired so he starts living the Beast Etc in the jungle and um very interestingly IBN Salaam also doesn't touch Lala he says uh I don't uh it is dishonorable for me to uh touch you unless you want me but allow me to at least see your face once in a while so he comes


see your face once in a while so he comes he sees a face he goes away and she also remains devoted to majnu and also she also is suffering but you know women suffering cannot be public because they have to keep some dignity otherwise it brings dishonor to the tribe and everybody family she's also suffering in meanwhile his father passes away and majnu is in um goes even deeper into uh seclusion because his father had tried that he says to his son that look the days of Life are few why don't you enjoy what is left of life and even my my days my evening of my life is coming son why don't you for the sake of me why don't you uh do something um I'll get you a new bride try to lead a happier life but majnu's reply is also interesting he says father even if I want I can't do it because there is Autumn inside me you know I have to um this is my destiny and he says it's


um this is my destiny and he says it's only now that I'm realizing my destiny the Sufi is saying look this is my destiny you might think that I am in a sad life that I am you know without money I'm in poverty the Sufi usually was in poverty he was usually um living a simple life that was the only way to purify your heart but he says but this is my destiny this is the only way that I get peace and the animals of the forest start to protect him the lion protects him even the vultures protect him you know and in the middle a man comes to him and gives because majnu has been writing poetry in uh for Leila and Laila also then writes on a piece of paper her name and his name and the man comes and gives him this letter that she has written so majnu tears it and he throws away the part which says Layla and keeps only the part which is much new and they say what are you doing why


much new and they say what are you doing why are you doing this and he says because you don't understand he says that is when the lover and beloved are come so close one name is enough for both you don't need a second name this is what I was trying to tell you which is the Indian uh version of this Tale so he does that and um so one night one day some old Sheikh takes pity and he says to him that uh he goes to uh Laila and he says uh you know majnu is suffering so much because if you uh why don't you at least once meet him Etc she says uh she gives him her earrings and she says look um um uh I I would like to see him once if possible I have also suffered deeply and so he goes uh with this and he goes too much new and he says would it kill you if you just give a few minutes to see her once yeah because initially majnu is reluctant he says she's


because initially majnu is reluctant he says she's in my lives in my heart I don't need to see it but then he agrees you know even he's wants to see her once and he brings them to a Palm Grove in the night whether Moon Moonlight and she follows the old man up to the Palm Grove but at about 20 Paces she stops and she says I'm already burning like a candle my sir uh I can go this far and no further otherwise I will be consumed by the flame and majnu is there also at the Palm Grove his face is uh white blood has been drained from his face and body and he's sitting quietly but when he sees her you know some life returns to him and he gets transfixed and for a brief moment they look at each other it is almost as if you know they're looking at each other's Souls and suddenly uh before he can he tries to say something and before he can say something he kind of there's a


before he can say something he kind of there's a breaks down and uh he runs away from the from the place with a cry and they never see each other again in the story the husband dies IBN salaam dies also he's also a broken hearted and in the Islamic um a religion you know you are supposed to wait there's a before your husband dies before you can remarry there's a period of idat during this period she is also you know suffered so much that she also falls ill and passes away and then this news is sent to um says so he rushes to her grave and um he presses himself once he realizes this is a grave he presses himself so hard against the stone that just with one cry which is Laila his body also collapses and his soul departs so um but he keeps lying over the grave some people said for weeks months years nobody knows and the Animals protect him until he's also turned to dust and Bone and then zami ends


turned to dust and Bone and then zami ends it with these lines that you know they could not meet in this world but we hope that they unite in the next and live in the same tent under the sky so um what is this this what does this all mean I mean I've I've shortened a very long story for you but what what does this all mean well this actually sad story is the story of the Sufi and same thing we have in India in the story of heer ranja he is from a different tribe ranja is from a different tribe they love each other but they're not able to marry she's married off uh to someone else and then ranja becomes a mendicant he becomes actually a Nath Yogi kanpata means one whose ear Khan is threaded and he goes from house to house begging where at one he comes across her you know when he's going cross begging and um initially he had been actually a guy who was who had been a Cowherd or


guy who was who had been a Cowherd or a buffalo herd uh working in her in her extended Clan for an extended clan um so again it has beautiful descriptions of uh Laila of here and um so again it's a romantic story which again ends in tragedy and she's poisoned and he's killed and and the story ends in again a tragedy but again this the the soul of the stories again this um this yearning for the for the unattainable or the unattained you know you can for human purposes you can see this is a romantic love story you can see this as a as a kind of um as they say but [Music] in effect it is about this NF ineffable essence uh uh and why this is also very Sufi is because as I said to you the essence of God is according to sufi's love the way you will find God is through this path of love and when the mirrors are removed when the when the whales are removed what will


removed when the when the whales are removed what will remain will be love you know so when you were looking out at the sun I told you that there are birds going there's a group of birds going you know this again is a metaphor of the sufis there was a guy called faridudi natar again around 12 1300s in Iran and means the same word you know it is perfume very interesting guy he wrote a story about how the birds get together and they say we want to meet the simur the which is actually representing God but he's the mythical god-like bird means uh bird in Farsi and the the leader says to them that okay but you have to follow my Commandments very strictly if you uh disobey me that'll be the end of this journey because it's a very difficult journey I know how it's done again he's represents the Sufi Master you have to follow the guru the master very carefully because he'll take you through the stages and he takes them


take you through the stages and he takes them through seven valleys each of the valley is a different stage of meditative or Sufi practices uh you know until the final stage comes with uh you know you are you you don't know who am I anymore you know which bullisha says because now you have lost the sense of self itself and finally you come to the seven stage where you are confronted with um but what they're actually confronted with because out of the thousands of words only 30 have reached what they are confronted with actually the simur is actually a mirror they are confronted with themselves they're looking at themselves and he says that now you have finally reached your self your ego your nafs has been destroyed what you're looking at is foreign or you are now actually and c means 30. so actually simur is actually the 30 birds so the 30 who reach in the end are the ones who are only looking at themselves that is the end you know that is when you


that is the end you know that is when you realize the fanaa [Laughter] not the self lots to take in hmm episode Full Of Love full of uh self actualization self-realization and history and stories so thank you sir yeah I hope you had fun talking about your favorite subject it is certainly amongst all the subjects you know a lot about I feel like Sufism is your subject yeah yeah and it's also the subject of India it is what uh brings all of us in some ways together this advaithic all of these come together here message is the same yeah Christian monasticism all of it is exactly the same and and this story of the Indian sufis kind of brings India's history together you know because they are trying to form Bridges as I said to you with the gurat natis with the with the advaithics they have conferences with them they said they discuss practices they exchange practices they try to develop a syncretic culture and you can see this in our songs


culture and you can see this in our songs songs medieval songs are the best reflection of our culture I mean I'll say to you with these words the word you know it's very interesting it was used by all three religions for God in the Punjab and in Delhi also area that is in Hinduism also in sikki also in Islam also what what does that tell you is there any other place in the world where you would find three or four people of different religions using the same word for God this tells you what kind of a syncretic culture exists in I'm just hoping that you know podcasts like this actually spread the true message of being a human being that's the intention yeah thank you thank you lots of fun as usual uh lots of learning and lots of heaviness that you left us with also lots of romantic poetry that I'll be using one day to connect a God and maybe to connect with my lover yes thank you again sir thank you that was the episode for today 2023


thank you that was the episode for today 2023 it's all about inter-religious studies we have episodes on Sikhism coming up episodes on Jainism coming up we also have episodes on Christianity and Islam that are coming up I really hope and pray that you guys give us guest recommendations anyone that the comment section has recommended has always been brought on the show so especially for the domains that I just named please let me know Indian spokespeople fantastic communicators fantastic people of wisdom that we can bring on the show and from whom we can learn more about the world's real untold history I feel like you can never learn history just from history books just from school just from college when you truly wish to learn history it's got to be a lifelong process and that's what we're trying to help you with on the runway show remember follow us on Spotify every episode's available on Spotify 40 eight hours before it's available anywhere else in the world my meditation app level super mind is now live on


my meditation app level super mind is now live on the App Store on the Play store and the ranveer show will be back soon [Music] thank you


So here comes an individual if I may call an individual to present Guru Nanak. A child is born in that environment. He puts that small city on the world map because of what? Because of what he brought, the revolutionary ideas he brought, and the mandates he created while alive to change the realities. The way he dialogued, the way he asked his question


to his math teacher and his Sanskrit teacher, and the Kazi of the town and the Brahman of the town. So in the Sikh world, my estimate is for almost 70 years, there was not much knowledge transfer, and I can give example of that. An average gurdwara in a village, for example gurdwara, by the way, is not a worship center for Sikhs. It has become that now. Even in Bombay, it was a place of learning. It was a place of organizing. Like this will shock you. A Gurdwara is used to organize political rallies also. 2023 is all about inter-religious studies on The Ranveer Show, we've done a ton of episodes about Hinduism and ancient Indian culture. This is a two-part special on Sikhi or Sikhism as most of the world knows. This was such an elaborate topic that we had to split it up into two episodes. That says a lot about our guest today, Harinder Singh. Personally, I feel there are very few people in the entire world who are capable of speaking about Sikhi as a subject in the same manner that Harinder Singh has. My only regret is that I couldn't do an episode with him in Hindi. But eventually we will. And the reason I say that is because you're not ready for the kind of information and passion that's packed into these two episodes. Episode one is much more focused on Guru Nanak Devji, the history of Sikhism, the origins of it, and the basic principles it's based on. As with most episodes of TRS, which are spiritual or historical, even this episode highlights meditation as a human need. Dhyan, Sadhana. These concepts have come up on this episode as well, which is why, before the episode begins, I'd like to direct you to Beer Biceps own meditation app Level SuperMind. Make sure you download


it from the links given down below. Make sure you follow TRS on Spotify. We are a Spotify exclusive. Every episode is available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world. Lots of power-packed
historical as well as spiritual content in this particular episode. Enjoy yourself. This is Harinder Singh on TRS. 🎶[Music]🎶 🎶[Music]🎶 🎶[Music]🎶 Harinder Singh, sir, welcome to the Ranveer Show. Nice to be here. I feel there's very few people who dedicate their entire life to one subject the way you have. I won't say it's one subject, it's one very wide subject. I'm hesitant to say the word Sikhism because you corrected me outside. Why should I not be using
the word Sikhism? Well, it's fine. In the popular culture,
that's what we say. But our native terms are important, otherwise everything becomes orientalist. And right now, there's so much
deconstruction happening. So the term is Sikhi. When people in India, South Asia talk about it, the original or the primary text talks about who Sikhs are,
they call it Sikhi. Okay, yeah. What does the word Sikhi mean? That's interesting. So there is a school of thought which says if you come from a Sanskrit angle, it means shishya or disciple. When you come from a Pali angle, it means
the one who's already on the path. What is Pali? Pali is the first people's language
of India. -Okay.
-Brought in from the Buddhist perspective. -Okay.


of India. -Okay.
-Brought in from the Buddhist perspective. -Okay.
-Sanskrit has always been the language of the Gods, so it was never the people's language. So I like to integrate things because the Gurus who came and the Bhagats who came, who are contributors to Guru Granth Sahib, the actual source of truth of Sikhi, they actually use these words -from people's perspective.
-Okay. So it's a learner, who is on the path, not just experimenting, but pursuing a particular thing. Okay, so correct me if I'm wrong, sir, but was Pali spoken across India or like, in a majority of North India? I'm assuming. So that becomes a debatable thing. But Pali was the language of South Asia, we'll call it. -Okay.
-Because even India is a modern state. We get into this India,
Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, South Asia,
anything south of Khyber Pass, the whole subcontinent,
as we call it today. Yeah, Pali was a state language. Pali was the people's language. Kind of like what Hindi and Urdu -are to Indian and Pakistan.
-What Hindustani has been, which now has become Hindi and Urdu, yes. -Okay, so Pali preceded Hindustani.
-Absolutely. -This is Ashoka period.
-All right. And if you look at the earlier text and Sikh and the Indian thought is bringing those words. So when there are lots of words which we think are only coming
from Sanskrit, many come from Pali. And as the words change, the meanings also change a bit, although the etymologies might be same. Okay, how do you begin teaching a very curious American about Sikhi, especially from a story perspective? I think


we have a lot of teenage listeners, and the reason this podcast has grown,
especially in the history tangents, is because of stories. And I know it's something
you don't truly wish to do on the show. I'd also like to know why you don't want
to get into the storytelling angle much. Well, I understand
why stories are important. Look, I mean, if you want to change
destiny of any nation, as they say, Goethe has said that, you got to look at what people
below the age of 25 are thinking. So if that's where you're going, more kudos to you, man, more power to you, because that's what changes the realities. And the next dreams are created and they become realities then. So Sikh perspective is very clear on this. The story of Sikhi begins with Guru Nanak Year is 1469. It's a confrontation of what we now call Hinduism and Islam in Punjab. Those are the two dominant religions. And confrontation in terms of ideas, in terms of even battles, in terms of ideologies and rulers. This is just the beginning
of the Mughal dynasty in India, for example, there's a lot of invasion
which used to come from Middle East. And for example,
at that time, Babur is coming. So that's the time in Punjab, in fact, for your audience, if I say Guru Nanak put a very small village on the world map. That village now is called Nankana Sahib. It was called Rai-Bhoi-di-Talwandi. In fact, I visited it several times. Where is it? The city is called Nankana Sahib. It is about 2 hours from Lahore. -Okay.
-Yeah. -Okay.


-Yeah. -Okay.
-So here comes an individual, if I may call an individual to present Guru Nanak. A child is born in that environment, and he puts that small city on the world map because of what? Because of what he brought, the revolutionary ideas he brought and the mandates he created while alive to change the realities. The way he dialogued, the way he asked his question
to his math teacher and his Sanskrit teacher and the Kazi of the town and the Brahman of the town. It was not creating a ruckus. It was creating a dialogue because he's pursuing a particular
love affair, is what I call it. So one of the things I like, for example, is his conversation
with his math and Sanskrit teacher. He's asking more "WHY" questions. Today in education,
we call these imaginative questions, not trivial questions,
which are more "WHAT" questions. Like, for example, what if the moon disappears? What will happen to the earth? Is that a good example? That's a "WHAT IF" question, which is another thing, -if I may give example of that.
-Sure. There's a ceremony. Let's talk about ceremonies, because we all go through ceremonies, whether we like them or not. They're part of the culture. Sometimes they have religious fervors. So there's a ceremony in his house, and it's an initiation ceremony how you enter into adulthood. There's a Hindu culture. So he's born
in the Hindu particular caste, and that ceremony is going on. Instead of saying,
I'm not going to go through it, he says,


I'm not going to go through it, he says,
tell me why I should go through it? And why was this not available for my sister who is older than me? So that's what he's doing. He wants people to process. He's not rejecting this is how most Sikhs presented? He never said that. He writes about it himself.
That's how I know. And when I read that, he's saying, tell me what it will do to me. Why was this not availed to others? Why is exclusively just for me? Like the logic of things. That's what we call it,
like a simple logic. Today we may get into Descartian logics, but it's a higher logic. Sometimes it even transcends
the mystic logics. Yes. So it's essentially
trying to carry people with it rather than saying
rejections and disruptions. Okay, before we move a little forward, -one tangential question, sir.
-Sure. Does Sikhism. Sorry. You're fine. I understand. -Does Sikhi have a mystical side to it?
-Absolutely. Everything is not logic and reason. It's a relationship, it's a love affair. How would you define the word mystical? I am very anti-definition because I think this is something in 20th century
we have all become so used to, because everything
is about the law and the codes. And how can mystery
be about the law and the code? How can the relationship, so mysticism is where you
are experiencing something. One experiences something


are experiencing something. One experiences something
which is not fully definable. Okay. It's an experience of, in a human relationship, how can we analyze what happens between a lover and the beloved? Similarly, how can we analyze what happens between the human love and the divine love? It is to be experienced. The intimacy cannot be defined. Intimacy is experienced. Okay.
I will let you continue the story, sir. -So Sikhi has some mystical elements.
-Absolutely. And that's the,
including in Guru Nanak's own. So 1469 is when he's born. So that's the South Asia. What's happening at that time? Mughal dynasty is about to get started. Babur has just attacked a town called Saidpur, I visited that. It's very interesting. And Guru Nanak protested against that. So that's a Guru Nanak, you may not know, this is the historical Guru Nanak. He's protesting and the fight is between, they both have the same faith,
they're both Muslims, but one is Pathan, the local ruler, the Lodhi dynasty. And the one is coming from Khorasan, the area sometimes between
Iran and Afghanistan. That area we are coming from. And Guru Nanak witnesses the whole thing and he questions it. And this is important, just to put in perspective. It's like a genocidal campaign going on. And mostly the victims are women, what we call today collateral damage. And he lists them. He says, I'm feeling the pain of Hindu women,
Thakrani women, the low caste women, and even the Muslim women
who are reading the Qurans, because that's who's getting killed and that's who's getting enslaved and violated, the rapes included. And he in fact very powerfully writes. He says, I'm standing


on the pile of dead bodies. And I'm saying that this is the time
to tell the truth, that this must stop. Nobody in South Asia, no Sufi, no religious leader, even recorded a protest. He did. Guru Nanak did. And he was jailed for it. He spent time in jail. People didn't protest out of fear? Of course. Who's going to take on, what we now call
the Mughals and the Pathans? Okay, when we speak about Mughal atrocities on the channel, often we're labeled as being right wing because we're targeting Mughals. But this is so important that the Mughals actually first targeted Muslim brethren. I think those labels create a problem. Like even the right wing is a label. What we are saying is the religion is same where the fight is going on. It's two men who in their power, are violating everyone else. And Guru Nanak is protesting against what are you doing? To what we call rayath
or constituency today. The people. We're taught about Babur
in our history textbooks as the first Mughal emperor, we're not taught all these things. That's right, because this is the part
which doesn't get recorded. So at the same time, just so we don't get caught up
in anti-Babur thing, because this is not anti-Babur Babur comes to see Guru Nanak in jail because you see one of the things in Islam
we have to understand, Babur is not a regular guy. He is a scholar as well as a warrior. They are taught
with the particular trainings. All the Mughals went through incredible
trainings, actually, the Mughal emperors, I should say,
ones who were the Badshahs So he comes to see Guru Nanak and he sees that something


ain't right here. Because in Islam, if you come across a spiritual individual, you're supposed to eliminate all the wrong things you're doing to them. This is one of the trainings in Islam. And he sees there's something
spiritual going on. He's organizing people. And they had given him harsh punishment,
he was grinding. He was given time.
That's the labor, right? You do up in prison, you give labors. So he immediately releases him that they have imprisoned the wrong man. He's saying the right thing,
but I don't like it. But he's saying the right things. But how did he spot that,
Guru Nanakji was... The traditions maintain and some secondary texts maintain that Babur came to see him
and he heard about it. This peer, in the vocabulary of Islam, that there's a peer who is saying this. This is not just any another protester, as we would say today. Very stupid point, I'm bringing forth. But I feel that because we live
in the age of YouTube, Right. We take the "WHY" questions
for granted, now. I feel there are more answers
to the WHYS now. Why is this thing being done? Why is this practice being done? Then there's some logic
you can research and find out yourself. At that time, it was no, no, you got to do what the elders have said. No, that's even today, back then, they eliminated you. Oh, there is no questioning. We think dictatorship is big today. You see that in many forms globally. Earlier there is no questioning. You're eliminated, you're killed. People were--


Because people didn't value human life, sometimes we get decentralized in 2023. We also don't do it by seeing certain images. And the way we, the vocabularies we use, the violences we create, we are really desensitized. Earlier, the desensitization was incredibly high. In fact, Guru Nanak, when he talked about that battle, which I referenced earlier, he uses this phrase. He says that jewel-like humans, are being defiled by dog-like behavior. The value of human life is very, very important, regardless of what you believe in, where you are born, what your status is, we say that, but we actually don't value it. So I still want to know a little bit about the 30 years that we were speaking about. Meditation was a part of this? It always is. But the word meditation
we should discuss a little bit. So one day he joined Muslims in his town to do Namaz. He went to both places. He went to many places. He went to Jain places as well, because he's a man of dialogue. In fact, he himself has written there's a question
because he traveled a lot. And the question which we may ask, why did you travel? He writes the answer "Gurmukh Khojat Bhaye Udasi." Udasis are his travels, his odysseys or his journeys. He says, I left home to meet wisdom-oriented individuals. That's something, isn't it? So one time he is actually in a local mosque and he joins them in prayer. And the Kazi afterward he finished the prayer, says, I noticed you didn't join us fully today. He's like, because your mind wasn't there. Your mind was into what's going to happen of the animals


he needed to sell somewhere. So meditation, when you invoke the word, what does meditation really mean? -You tell me sir.
-Is it the mindfulness, as we like to talk about today? Which, I mean, I used to work with some areas
of mind science foundations as well. So all these researches are continuing and the next evolution of this is unfolding in front of us. So meditation is some sort of remembrance is how I like to present it today, as I understand from Indic traditions, because the word is Dhyan. In Indian mythology and Indian philosophy, there are various schools of thoughts
on Dhyan. And most, almost all, today have come back to one of the major six schools of Hindu philosophies, of Yoga Sutras, which really is about
intense concentration. That's why Shiva is considered
the ultimate yogi, because it is about concentration. But Dhyan is not just about concentration. Dhyan is so you can develop
a lifestyle of samadhi, which means
you live in a particular lifestyle of continuous remembrance. Continuous meditation. Meditation, and the reason,
I'm glad you did this, because meditation in English is a Latin word with French roots. It actually means pondering. One of my favorite poets is Walt Whitman. He wrote his book "Leaves of Grass." And his handwritten note, "My Meditation." And his meditation was, he says, I look up in the sky and I try to find the space where I'm standing today and my small place in this universe. So meditation is more like a reflection. In Indic tradition meditations were really more about
intense concentrations. Guru Nanak takes all this,


intense concentrations. Guru Nanak takes all this,
he's very aware of these words. He uses these words and he says, for him it becomes remembrance. Remembrance of the one who created me because I am in separation from that one. And in that remembrance, I want to be with that one. It's very Ruminesque because Rumi has become
popular these days. I an recalling
one of his English translations where he says, he says, everyone's listening to bansuri, reed. And people love the sound of reed. Depending on who's playing it. He says she's really crying. She's really crying and she's saying, can you take me back to where I was carved out from? So Guru Nanak is in Simran. Simran is remembrance literally, in the remembrance of the one
who created me because I am you and I want to be with you in your presence all the time. So the "Dhyan," or meditation in Guru Nanak's practice, in Sikh practice becomes living in the remembrance
of the one, not just concentrating. So concentration is a very mental thing. He's saying absolutely. Like, I've gone through many techniques. I can get into that in my own journey


of religions, including very Tibetan serious intense meditations, as we call them. But what Guru Nanak takes them is, how do you go from creating that intense meditation or concentration in the mind to intense remembrance in the heart? Has it been documented what kind of Dhyan he was specifically doing? Or was it different types? He writes it himself. And this is the beauty where most Sikhs or non-Sikhs or audience who are trying to understand Guru Nanak or Sikhs may not know this. He extensively wrote about what he did. The difference is this and the difference in terms of what we are used to today. He doesn't write it as a method. He writes it as a love affair. That's why I keep using that word. It is Bhavana word. It's Preet, it's Sneh, is Ishq, is Mohabat. And which methodological people
talk about this. Only mystical people talk about that. Is it like Bhakti Yoga? No, because that itself is a different school of thought. So he's very aware of it. He references it. He has conversations with those who did Bhakti Yoga. You'll have to give some context on what Bhakti Yoga is also. It's another,
one of the Yoga Sutra schools. Once you get into the six schools
of Hindu-- Six classical schools of Hindu philosophy,
let's call them. Khat Darshan, they are called. Like Sankhya is one of them, Advaita is one of them. And part of those is Yoga Sutras. Then within the yoga philosophies there are multiple schools as well. Because there are people who master these things. So Bhakti Yoga is,
academics like to say this, and I'm saying academics


academics like to say this, and I'm saying academics
intentionally here that this is what happened in the Sant tradition of medieval India. And they lump everyone like Guru Nanak Sahib and Bhagat Kabir and Bhagat Ravidas, into all this tradition. But really, all of them, there are hundreds of them, but all of them weren't doing that. There is nuancing to this because a lot of them actually are speaking even against it. Against Bhakti Yoga? -In a sense that I'm not practicing this.
-Okay. What I can share with you is, there are 15 bhagats in Guru Granth Sahib. If I look at what they have written, I would call them radical Bhagats. Radical because they are not entertaining things of the past. They're saying, this is how I love. You got to explain the word Bhagat. Bhagat is the one who does Bhakti, -the devoted one.
-Okay. They are, these words-- And I'm glad you said this because today
the word means something else. It's become very political. Every word is like that. So you have to provide the context of, in fact, the subtext and the context and the pretext
in that culture of the time. Is it annoying you
that I'm simplifying things so much, -That I am asking you.
-No, no. not at all. I don't want to break
the flow of the conversation. At the same time, we have
12-year-olds who listen to the show. I'm glad you're doing it, because that's providing context for them. Okay, I'll try giving it a shot
at Bhakti Yoga. -From what I understand.


at Bhakti Yoga. -From what I understand.
-Sure. Which I've understood from the show, it's basically a format of devotion, where, say, the love you would feel to your family or your romantic partner, -you actually direct towards the divine.
-Transcend yeah. And just through that love and faith and Dhyan upon that love, -you progress spiritually.
-Yeah. So from everything you described
about Guru Nanak, it seems to me
that he was doing a version of this. -But you're saying it wasn't exactly this.
-No. -So I want to ask you the difference.
-Sure. -You're asking right now?
-Yes, yes. I am asking you right now. Look, the problem with the existing terms is that we start fixating and boxing people in them. And that's Guru Nanak didn't say I'm doing Bhakti Yoga, so who am I to say he did Bhakti Yoga? That's the reason I'm saying no. He writes, he says I am in love. He describes himself as a poet and a lover of the beloved. So that's what I want to use. Those are his phrases. He uses the word Shayar for himself. That's why
he's not writing methodologically that do this five-step process. The three-step process. The top ten things. That's what we are used to now. He doesn't say that because it's a relationship. And the relationship what matters is, eventually you figured out that this is how I want to live. And the way he writes about that is, for him, like he has a sister. He has a great relationship
with his sister. He has great relationship with his wife. He has two kids. His mom and dad are there. He has incredible relationship


with his mom. Every time he came back from his journey, he used to go visit her
and kiss her on her forehead. So it's not about that he's not involved
in the affairs of life, but the love with a capital L, if I may call it, it's not transcendence of the lowercase L. It's a different plane altogether. So this is not saying
that I will be detached. It is non-attachment, if I may use that vocabulary. Detachment is something else. Where you actually are not feeling it. He is fully feeling, he's sweating, he is working, he is farming. He is still having intense concentrations with the Yogis as well as the emperors like Babur. But at the same time, he's centered only on the one which he called a Ik Onkar. His unique contribution, if I may call, is Ik Onkar, which, by the way, does not mean there is one God. It means there is one creative
and pervasive force. So this whole debate about atheism and the kind of God, he completely disrupts it. -Let's expand this thought.
-Sure. Because I think before we move forward
in the story, I'd like to actually know about this thought, because for me, and I think an entire generation, it means one universal power. -Fair to say?
That's fair. -Okay.
-Something like that. These are our words. So even the word I use,


-Something like that. These are our words. So even the word I use,
the word force to explain, the word is Onkar. But he put the numeral one in front because, see, there's a debate. Richard Dawkins is many people's God, although he's an atheist, because what does God mean? The following, the larger idea. And it gets disrupted from Greek mythologies to Abrahamic faith through indologies of various persuasion. So we can't get fixated on the word. It's a generic usage we all understand. But he writes the numeral one. Because you know the word "Ik," if you spell it out, even in Punjabi, it can mean one, few, or many. -How?
-That's right. So this is why when you write
the word one, O-N-E, it means all of those. It depends on the context. But when you write the numeral one, this is a unity numeric digit, which means
there is no other interpretation. So when you interpret the digit one, it becomes about affirmation of something. -Got it.
-Not negation, like zero of something or nothingness. -Got it.
-So it's a departure from debate between zero and one, which computer science people understand better, I think, than us. So it's not diabolic thing. It's saying there is only one, and not a vague oneness spelled like O-N-E-N-E-S-S but letter number one, which means
there is a unity of everything. It's a question of are you feeling it? Do you realize it? Are you acknowledging it? And if you do all of that, they're ones who actually live it incessantly, not glimpses of it, and they are the real lovers


of the Divine. Again, before we move forward, a little random question for you. We had someone called Ramiyar Karanjia on the show. He's a Zoroastrianism expert and he told me that a lot of young Parsis actually don't know the details he was speaking about on the show. I have the same question for you. Do young Sikhs all over the world know these aspects of their own culture? I think it's the same issue everywhere in the world, including with Sikhs. Many are aspiring towards it. Look, what has happened is, the knowledge transfer had stopped for a while. So I'm going to the crux of the issue why they don't know. I've been looking at myself like how I grew up as a Sikh in Jhansi for first 12 years and then I end up in Kansas in 86. And it's only when I went there, I asked certain questions because I got asked. I didn't know anything about Sikhs. Who asked you? The people around me and the journey which I started then I'm asking myself, what am I? Why do I look like this? Why do we do certain things the way we do it? So until you have the query, you really don't pursue knowledges, right? You assume things. And it's the osmosis,
it's the people around us. They basically make us
whatever they want to make us. So what has happened
in most cases in the world, not just with Sikhs, the knowledge transfer wasn't going on. A lot of assumptions were being made in the way we grow. So in the Sikh world, my estimate is for almost 70 years there was not much knowledge transfer. And I can give example of that. An average gurdwara in a village, for example gurdwara, by the way


is not a worship center for Sikhs. It has become that now. Even in Bombay, it was a place of learning. It was a place of organizing. Like this will shock you. Gurdwaras used to organize political rallies also and not including in Amritsar, even 100 years ago in Stockton, California and Vancouver in 1916, they go to collect money for Indian independence in Stockton, California. And they raise $7,000 without even first making a building like send it back. So a lot of things have changed in the last 70-80 years. So now everyone's doing worshiping. Do you think
it's because of the world wars and all the turmoil that was going on? Guru Nanak did that. Did what? His idea of a place which we now call Gurdwara. He never said this is just to remember
the divine and sing. Because where did he do all this? Wherever he went. I meant the knowledge transfer. Do you think it stopped in the last 70 years because of the world wars? -Because of all this.
-No. In the Sikh world I can give you, -as I understand why it stopped.
-Sure in an average village, the Granthi, the one who knows the Granth
is the literal meaning, which is Guru Granth Sahib, the source of truth for Sikhs. He knew that and he was an educated man. More educated than the regular villager to the level where they would say,
read our letter. Advice on marriages, advice on anything in life. -Like a mentor for the whole village.
-Exactly. -It's actually more like a counselor.


-Exactly. -It's actually more like a counselor.
-Okay. And fairly educated individual with a high character. But in the last 70 years it has been dismantled. Now people who are Granthis are less educated than an average constituency or a Sangat member. So how will they have a respect. That person is not switched on. That person is not trained. I mean, this person today, if you ask me, should be a double PhD. One in the thought system, other in psychology. That's the only way you can help people. Why did you bring up psychology? Well, because you need to understand the various mindsets. As in people will come to you
with different problems. -Absolutely. The counseling skills.
-Okay, got it. Ability to be able to relate and then communicate and advise in their circumstances, which is relevant rather than giving a preconceived preaching answer because that doesn't help. This is where barriers are now, right? Okay. Now we will continue the story, sir, back to the 15th century. Okay. What would you like to know more about Guru Nanak? We stopped at the part where he meets Emperor Babur. And then he, not just that that actually happened, so we're going back and forth on it. We are not chronological right now. -Best way to do a podcast.
-But it's okay. Sure. Well, let's talk about, he was traveling the world. This will be interesting. He went to Jagannath Puri, -One second, I got to dial you back.
-Okay. To the moment he met Babur. -Okay.


-Okay. To the moment he met Babur. -Okay.
-Did Babur release him? Yes, he was released. He was released by Babur. In fact, the folk tradition maintains that he then sought Guru Nanak's blessing, the ability to be able to rule India. Okay. Okay, what does that mean now,
think about that. -I want to ask you.
-Somebody who imprisoned you, is now seeking your blessing. So there's an acknowledgment happening here that there are wrongs we do, there are crimes we commit, classically, we call them sins. But they are crimes at the end of the day. You commit against individuals and against yourself. So those acknowledgments are happening. The ideas of forgiveness are happening. And then working to create better systems is going on as well. Okay. Now I'll let you continue the story. Sure. So part of the story is, which I think will be very relevant today, is he's having dialogues with multiple lifestyles? Because earlier and even today, honestly, everything becomes
spiritual and political. We run away from political and sometime we overly hype the spiritual. Again, these are the common words. So he's going to those centers and having dialogues. He had dialogues with Yogis. He goes to Jagannath Puri Temple where Mrs. Gandhi
was not allowed to enter. It's that strict. I'm just putting a perspective. He goes to Mecca where a non-Muslim cannot enter and he's having conversations with them. What does it take? The genius is just one element
at our levels. But the communication ability, the way you present yourself, the way you're able to have a dialogue in disagreements, that's Guru Nanak. That's the real Guru Nanak which is available to us


in Guru Granth Sahib what he writes himself, which is incredible. So in his travels, he's having these conversations. But there comes a point and this is something different about him which people may not know. He founds a new city. How many spiritual people do that. This is why to call him just spiritual is very problematic. What would you call him? Why do we need to call him anything? He's his own model. He actually is dealing with-- in the vocabulary
which is written about him is that he is both Raj and Jogi. Raj Jog This is very interesting. Raj is political. Jog is union. That's the literal meaning. Not just Yoga Sutras. That the meaning of Jog is "milap." Like Jog, Yog. Exactly. Same Yog and Jog is same. It's just a linguistic variation. So that's what he is. He founds a new city called Kartarpur. Now, the question which someone like me-- I visited there, I present on it now. I create a whole presentation because I found the old records. Why did he do that? All this is in Pakistan. In current Pakistan. -You got to realize it's all Punjab.
-Yeah. And half of the Punjab in 47 is called West Punjab now,
which is in Pak-- Which is a larger Punjab, by the way. And the other half,
it's like a butterfly's wing. This may help you-- This may help you and your audience
understand certain things, because it helped me. Actually, the map of Punjab, if you look at the original region
of Punjab, looks like a butterfly, and one wing got clipped. That's part of the problem of Punjab. How do Sikhs feel generally about this, that so many important centers
are in Pakistan? I know


are in Pakistan? I know
because I have a lot of Sindhi friends who keep talking about at one point, they wish to visit Sindh. They just wish to see their roots. First time I went to Pakistan was in 84, June. I was very young. I remember everything I saw. And then I got stuck coming back to India because of what happened in 84. But in my adult life, I've been going there since 2007, visiting different places, having conversations
with not just the Muslims of the time. I'm very interested in, how is it that they're able to have a three-day festival in Lahore on somebody who was homosexual? And it's an Islamic State, where homosexuality is illegal. So the people's culture what I'm trying to say is Punjab's culture was very open culture. -What is this?
-Shah Hussain. The point what I'm trying to make is, I don't think we understand, and we cannot understand Sikhs and Punjab. And they're not synonymous. They're two different entities. But Sikhs were primarily from Punjab, and now we are global. Just from the political lens of India and Pakistan, because that's a nationalistic lens, which tells us some stories, because you're interested in stories, -but the story is much bigger.
-Yeah. The plurality of Punjab, Sikh tradition, Hindu tradition, Islamic tradition, Sindhi element will get lost completely. Otherwise, you'll only be telling stories from Bombay now, which is what has happened. Parsi story is getting lost, as you mentioned earlier, because very few peop--
It hasn't been written much. You got to go back to one book
on Zarathustra and what is being written about him. So the story is always told by people