accurate depiction it's not an accuracy I'm not going to waste my time I did seek the tiger and I laughed and I enjoyed that because it was so quaint not because it was defeating anything yeah like you had that other movie of um War where they can no this was this fellow Salman Khan going under a tunnel into Pakistan to deliver a girl who had got legendary but whatever this one you have to have entertainment which is fun and realistic you should see that movie The Bridge of spies if that is a real movie okay that is how real spy movies are made what does a real spy movie constitute it means dealing with actual facts no no blonde round no nothing around it's okay living a lonely life you're living on by yourself living your cover story he able uh with goldfish was actually a an artist who is doing paintings he used to make him make money out of it and but he was doing this other job also so running is espionage ring and they show all


also so running is espionage ring and they show all that our documents are exchanged or document information is exchanged you have things called letter dead letter boxes a dead letter box in in Espionage is a place it could be a book let's say or or that statue I put my UBS under it and leave it and leave a sign outside on some tree or a wall that I've I've fed the the dead litter box okay so the other chap comes and picks it up and takes it away the two never meet all right is the human motivation to become an intelligence officer based on the fact that you want to serve your country is that the core motivation for example with the military that's a core motivation everyone joins the military in order to serve their country it's the same thing here not not quite but but there is there is a section of the people join who join it for the for the need for the desire to work in this particular kind of work there are others probably just come to look


of work there are others probably just come to look at it and see how it goes and whether it suits them or not and then some many of them or not many quite a few of them go back they're not interested are you comfortable talking about how you got into the system like how you were recruited well I was recruited in 1907 either my recruitment started I should imagine sometime end of 71. you mean you were being researched upon I suppose so because then I was asked to go and meet an officer in the cabinet Secretariat and he wants to talk to you so I did that and then he asked me would you be willing to because we had heard about this you know they we heard that there is going to be a new organization so I went and had it a little chat with him that's it then because earlier on it was decided by the government of Mrs Gandhi and with Mr Cow as they had that it should not be a police organization it should have


it should not be a police organization it should have talent from everywhere else all right so I am one of the everywhere else's do you have any Bros well there have been they are the every intelligence agency has a brew I meant on a very human level did you have a guy who worked with you at RNA wa you're like he's a brother or you're taught not to think like that about anyone you can't develop a real social connection no it's not so so so restrictive okay and but these days you know in India it is very difficult to hide where you're working okay you know I I probably not in Bombay so much but in Delhi where we where I spend my life where it's a bureaucratic City so everybody the whoso is the is ifs IPS and these kinds of people the politician it's a power City so there they you meet somebody I'm always second or third question is so where are you working so if you say you're working in the ministry of


if you say you're working in the ministry of Home affairs okay is you know they want to fit fix you I'm giving an imaginary answer sure which color you know they keep the key pattern they won't stop so for us also the cabinet secretary where do you sit okay what did you say back in the day back in the day we said cabinet Secretariat and nobody knew much about it cabinet secretary it passed on and there was also that kind of Aura of fear okay oh okay even now they do it even now it happens yeah I'm not I'm not feeling comfortable about this conversation honestly now I am wasn't in the morning did your family know what you did my wife knew okay my children didn't know for a long time so what do they think the dad does no they didn't they weren't bothered I mean they were they just kids okay all right kids don't after 13 14 those days are not so inquisitive and then they suddenly started noticing that is doing


and then they suddenly started noticing that is doing something different and then gradually it gets to know now so it took a while for them to know all right how did you have that conversation with them how did they get to know that what is exactly that you do really with my daughter probably by the time they were teenagers and they figured yeah yeah then they figured out thank you okay so I let it be known gently you know but then there was no reaction [Music] getting posted around I have odd hours of work etc so then they've asked me and I said well I work with an intelligence organization but keep it to yourself that's it no noise no nothing okay all right is this line of questioning making you uncomfortable not yet what would make you uncomfortable well I don't know that depends on what questions you are if I ask you something where the answer could pose a threat to India security that's what would make you uncut I would not name names oh yeah I would not name names I


name names oh yeah I would not name names I would not name locations and I would not do anything that might embarrass the government today and now in order to read you even deeper so I will enter your heart yeah so uh this is our segment called rgo presents keep it casual where we'll kind of have a little more relaxed format of questioning uh this is to get to know you better so that I can navigate the conversation better post this segment so are you ready sir keep it casual so you can't think too long about your answers but I will ask you some tangential questions if you've given me an interesting answer so uh are you ready okay what's the first thing that comes to your mind when I say the following words India my country spy me military uh bravery politics I love it intelligence it's a good thing to have R and aw the best okay at the peak of your career did you get any days off and if yes what did you choose to do and what did you choose to


you choose to do and what did you choose to wear on Saturday novel trousers and t-shirt or whatever like if you have nothing to do at home what are you wearing still the same okay uh what was the best day of your life best day of my life yes the best day yes 23rd of January why as the day I got married oh okay romantic romantic at all yeah your wife had a role to play in your career she was a rock behind me okay because it's an extremely lonely career okay okay yeah I want to ask you so much more about that but it doesn't make for good content when you're talking to a spy sometimes no people want to know like you know where's the knife and where's the guy but I have so many of my own personal questions related to marriage and all that which we will speak about maybe after the shoot okay um if someone made you the PM of the country what are three things you'd like to change up I would like to I would like to


change up I would like to I would like to do three things presuming they haven't been done I would like to educate children in skills not just graduates and postgraduate skills different skills I would like to give 50 of your population greater opportunities the women um and I would look after the olders okay why the third one the older ones because once there at that age they need they need help and protection okay more than the young young can manage on their own based on the true nature of espionage which Indian actor's style would be best suited to portray the character of a spy you know I I saw um three three actors or three or four actors were very good this kind of a thing who could fit into these kinds of rules not giving any order of preference but I like nawazuddin Siddiqui I used to like Imran Khan Irfan Khan sorry and he was he was a consummate actor anupam care and uh these two actors the one who played family man um very good okay they


one who played family man um very good okay they could fit into the ruler and Mishra pankaj Mishra tripati or is it the one who did uh tripathi yeah I think it's the party okay maybe it's Punk which Indian or international movie has come closest to portraying the truth about Espionage you named one I think the perfect spy okay no a Bridges a bridge of spies and then there was a very nice movie TV series actually BBC Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy all right it's a cold war story about the the it's actually based on this Cambridge five you know the Cambridge five the uh Kim philby and others who were spying for who were actually with the MI6 but it was actually a KGB agent okay the real mole and he would have been Chief maybe one day I had the not been caught out so on that jean-lucare made a novel thinketh illness of the Spy it's beautifully done the book is marvelous and the acting and they movies Alec Guinness was then


the acting and they movies Alec Guinness was then I think all right if you can get a look seriously you should watch it okay and watch this uh Bridge of spies cool uh my biggest Hope from the Indian internet is Dash Indian intellect or internet internet will get our own oh okay okay that's a segment for uh the podcast after this particular scenario um okay they say that shoes say a lot about a person keeping that in mind what's your all-time favorite pair of shoes all-time favorite pair of shoes is my light and brown shoes right didn't wear this time but those that's my favorite that's most comfortable it's very smart Okay and matches most of my trousers so I'm happy with that okay practicality with a little bit of style yeah all right cool I actually think it's the end of the round pass okay uh yes sir where do we even begin the next segment sir okay let's start with what have you written about in your books okay okay what have you written about in your books


okay okay what have you written about in your books my first book was about Espionage okay as a theme not about RW about how the whole thing works how International Espionage will anecdotes in it what is the word espionage mean you'll have to explain that as well Espionage is spying okay the art of spying or the business of spying Espionage and counter espionage which means that you've launched a spy attack on me I turn it around and I do the same thing to you spy versus Me Maybe yeah maybe the same guy is doing it what same guy or double agent level eight so that is espionage and counter explanation for example if you figure that someone in your team is actually a mole you'll feel them you'll feed the mole wrong information so that he goes and harms his own organization okay that is if I can find the more [Laughter] okay I mean um how comfortable are you about speaking about identifying moles like I'm 100 sure you've encountered at least eight you know I


sure you've encountered at least eight you know I can speak and speak about the theory of it hahaha so everyone oh my God you know like allridge Ames the famous CIA man who was spying for the KGB for X number of years made a lot of money he got caught out because he was just spending too much money and they figured when you once you get your sights on a man then you start watching him watching what he does when you feed him information I'll see what he does so you you can you close the trap on him and pick him out but the most important thing is how do you spot a mall I'm a mobile catch me so you have to be it could be anyone in the system who could be a mole so it takes uh that much good luck shall I say or the van acts out of character is too inquisitive about somebody something which is not his business to know so then you start homing Anonymous pick him up or you have a straight betrayal


pick him up or you have a straight betrayal as in somebody comes and tells you from the other side you know that guy is is our man so someone from that side is betrayed he's betraying nature for his own reason maybe whatever what could be his own reason it could be Revenge against against his own system Cal break your systems okay it's a game real life games could the guy at the top also be a double agent theoretically yes okay theoretically yes um no one is about Sin in the round we just had with all those questions you mentioned something interesting about the internet yeah you want to expand that thought a little bit you said that we need an Indian internet is a western day into us it's a gift shall we say it's another gift to us it's a gift to themselves okay because through internet they've got a lot of data information about everything everywhere now Google has everything on on them on us literally speak any any other agency knows knowledge is now coming from them to us


agency knows knowledge is now coming from them to us our own knowledge is coming back to us from them you put a name and it call comes down it's all stored up this we don't have anything and I fear that things like I don't know whether I am technically right or wrong about this this chat GPT which is going to become over a period of time when this step is going to do everything for you then I think the human mind is going to stop thinking um he will leave it to that machine the machine will talk to that other machine and then you have artificial intelligence which like some people say will one day in the future exceed human intelligence if you look at the Chinese belief that the best war is the war but you'd fight without having to kill without having to die just sub on the race because upon the people yeah I like that you brought up China so because I want to take this into a geopolitical place this podcast I've had a bunch of people on the show I


had a bunch of people on the show I believe that everyone who tilts towards uh the right wing basically for lack of a better word believes that China's on the brink of some sort of a civil war um I'm sure you follow geopolitics very closely as well do you have an opinion I would you know this this kind of data reports its analyzes comes out from the West okay and the West always all there if you look over a Time they believe that first the Soviet Union was a big threat and then after that it became Russia is useless it's about collapse it's now they're still saying that similarly for China they're saying that there's a lot of trouble in China there's trouble in xinjiang there's trouble in Tibet the economy is the economy is going down etc etc maybe it is going down and maybe Xi Jinping doesn't if we would be really worried if in a totalitarian Society you have a riot so you have food right so you have this


riot so you have food right so you have this I don't think we have reached that state but supposing for arguments say this is how it happens then the totalitarian state is is more worried about this happening then we would hear because we are used to disorder of a Kind we're used to trouble we're used to strikes here and there not in that state so their reactions would be much stronger much more um cruel if I may use the word yeah so that kind of a thing can be a start point but I don't think China is going to Big countries just don't die away okay they don't die away Saina is a civilization also they may have got communism now but one thing about the the Chinese is that they don't think autocracy is a bad thing they've had they've had rulers who've been autocrats all along the Hans and everybody you have to explain what an autocrat is autocrat is is a is a person with power and authority and money and he has his


with power and authority and money and he has his own way of dealing with things yes or no kind of situation the reason I have to make you do these things is this is the charm of the show you need to be able to speak to 12 year olds about these things all right oh can you go on so uh so they're used to this harsh rules which the West doesn't understand but there resilience or the Russian resilience is much more than they think it is okay remember how many days the Russians the Soviets fought against Hitler in Saint Petersburg a year and a half I think bread and water that's all they had and Hitler had to retreat now that is the Russian strength the belief in themselves we will not give in that is why Putin is continuing till today because he has that strength the Chinese also have that string so let's not discount them discount them so you're saying these narratives come out of the West uh it's probably some sort of propaganda but China


uh it's probably some sort of propaganda but China didn't come so far just by being lucky yeah there's a lot of thought a lot of mental strength and a lot of strategy that's gone and and yeah and a lot of aid from from the West funnily enough they made them Rich okay for their own reasons okay what were other books about the second the first one I was about I call you the unending game it was about intelligence in the world the next book was the ultimate goal it was about how narratives are built by States okay and how they are countered and what is it that make goes into the making of those narratives I'm trying to tell my own people that you may have all the power in the world but unless you have this good story to tell about yourselves it won't work could you give an example to explain this thought more this narratives are built yeah one one narrative is is a long-term Narrative of superiority let's say sure like how we've always


superiority let's say sure like how we've always portrayed as a land of snake Charmers exactly okay exactly and they are the powerful the rich they have values Democratic Values values of fair play sporting people yeah generous people so on so forth sure we are the poor mean follows so they they made us poor and then they laughed at us for being poor and that is the long term that your you had no Sanskrit you had nothing you were actually Aryans who came down and gave you all this you were nothing without us and that story sold for a long time in India the other is a short time thing for a particular purpose remember how the story about Saddam Hussein having wmds and and Osama Bin Laden Al-Qaeda was operating there therefore we must go into that country and cure it and read it off that the war on terror the Warren Warren Terrace this was became a war against Saddam Hussein for trying to make it a nuclear bomb well he


for trying to make it a nuclear bomb well he wasn't they knew it but they manufactured intelligence then they manufactured a story and they spread it all over and then they attacked that is the narrative that built say up to March 18 2003. I think that's the year they attacked before I let you move forward why was this narrative built what was the underlying intention the underlining intention was that Saddam Hussein was sitting on a lot of oil okay and he had been under sanctions that they could sell oil for dollars up to a particular limit because he had done Kuwait and they had put him under sanctions he did a clever thing oh try to do a clever thing he started to sell oil for euros and he made a lot of money the Americans realized that if this happens then they hold on the on the oil will go away so they had to find a narrative to get in there to stop this from happening the rest is history then they found


from happening the rest is history then they found that instead of Saddam Hussein what they've got now is a stronger Iranian presence the shias had taken over because there's a substantial percentage of Iraqis oceans in fact majority are shares so they got nervous on that then they had to stop that then they went into Syria and so it became a huge mess and then Russians moved in into Syria so that was a narrative which went wrong so basically the goal is money in one form or the other yeah uh if America can get richer by invading a country uh they will do it yeah they will tell their media portals and their General uh population that listen we're going in there because we're the superheroes we're going in to save this country from its evil dictation yes yes now that media narrative because it's being released to the American audiences it also Finds Its way to the rest of the world because the rest of world media usually copies American Media true uh so then the whole


usually copies American Media true uh so then the whole world starts believing that America's Batman or Superman and they're going up and fighting against the Joker the evil but it may not truly be this is the case even if there's a smaller version of uh this which is true it's not the complete truth that you're seeing in mainstream media and you're the former rnaw Chief who's saying this do you think General Indian audiences should stop watching the news well I have okay so how should they get the informations podcasting all right no but I'll let you continue this so what about Gaddafi what about um you know they were they were all part of the same uh system all right Gaddafi gave up the nuclear option Gaddafi was sitting on a lot of oil and Gaddafi wanted to make a himself the leader of the Arab Muslim world in Africa that was a No-No it can't be done so you have to be got rid of okay which they did okay hmm there's a show on Netflix called


did okay hmm there's a show on Netflix called how to be a dictator I think it's called how to be a dictator right it's one of the most beautifully edited and written shows and when I had watched it I was blown away by the quality of work as a content creator as a writer as a media professional I love that show showed it to my mom showed it to some of my guests on the show abhiji chowda included and um their first reaction was listen I think this is a lot of propaganda on this show where they are portraying these same dictators that you and me are speaking about in a much more evil light than they actually are uh that's also a part very likely a part of the same long-term narrative that you're uh yeah to give you a very modern day example when you follow someone on Instagram someone of the opposite sex and that person is posting very beautiful photos of themselves constantly you begin to get slightly more attracted to them it's just a


get slightly more attracted to them it's just a matter of that same gorgeous face being thrown at you again and again it's the same reason someone becomes more desirable you know in the general uh public side so if you're fed a certain narrative constantly that becomes Your Truth yeah it becomes okay so all these dictators that we heard of over the last 20 years or so there was an element of America going into those countries in order to make some money yeah okay all right now what do we do with this information that we have just know it yeah the idea is that if you if a large number of us can understand that this is the game but if the large number of us let's carry on with this game we'll also make some money then you're not going to succeed okay so the conditioning of my mind is not enough your mind has to be conditioned to to accept what is being done to me I didn't understand this you see they are saying that Saddam Hussein is


see they are saying that Saddam Hussein is an evil dictator he has to be crushed but if I keep saying no no you're wrong you're wrong you're not so bad then it's only half the battle one so my mind has to be conditioned to believe that yeah he is really really evil so I get different stories planted on me my mind gets conditioned I accept that this is so I joined the game because then there is some Temptation for me to make some money out of it too join the race okay this is what America is finding difficult these days Ukraine has been people around around the world have been failure here neutral about it except for the Western lobbies as in no one knows who the hero the villain is yeah and and he's my hero is your villain your villain is my hero and that kind of thing is going on and then now there is a rush on the dollar because these sanctions people have started trading differently rupee Royal and this is growing


trading differently rupee Royal and this is growing they're now talking about a brics currency and today I read that the U.S treasury secretary treasury is saying that dollar is under pressure what happens then so this is a game of a superpower which has lost some of its superpower abilities yeah yeah and it is finding it difficult to get out of it finding it difficult how to I mean if you keep saying that Ukraine must win how will Ukraine when without soldiers without ammunition without arms you can give it all that but that's not enough um okay what is the future of America in the 2030s according to you would you go as far as predicting that America is still a very strong country I mean let's not under underestimate its power it is had these kinds of setbacks in the past but it's a very very strong country and it has a lot of a lot of good things happening for it okay and the technology that you get out of it the the education system


that you get out of it the the education system that you get out of it the all these are values that are important for the world and they are a strong Nation but I think they've gotten into a wrong track now they'll have to they'll have to re-evaluate and learn to live with others because in in 1974 Way Beyond before you they had a meeting on how to have how to control the population so that you can feed them what yeah because you cannot have 8 billion people on the Earth or 10 billion people on the Earth and feed them so population has to be restricted how do you restrict population vasectomies something has to be done because you can't share I can't share my wealth with everybody it's mine and if everybody else wants to be as rich as I am then I have to become poorer isn't it so how do how do I control by having fewer of the others reducing the population in other parts of the world at least reducing the growth of population so what was


least reducing the growth of population so what was the outcome of that oh yes I think you should read a bit more of these uh journals and magazines that are coming out from the United States that talk about this talk about this this uh phenomenon or this discussion that population has to be controlled but this happens you talk about artificial food can you imagine food the tree is artificial they said you feed on it 1974. so they started discussing it in 1974. there would have been an outcome in these last 50 years could have been yes so maybe all these wars genetically modified food what is it because you can control oil you can control the world you can control food you can control the people so you're saying in genetically modified foods there could possibly be some elements that might cause things like cancer I I wouldn't want to speculate but I think the genetically modified food has been known to this at least the European used to say that it is harmful how in what way I still


it is harmful how in what way I still don't know but it does restrict a genetically modified seeds for instance means that you cannot replant that seed goes away after one one growth one Harvest you have to buy a new seat you have to buy a new uh insecticides everything else and you have to have water so the man who's supplying you uh genetically modified seeds is the controller which is America which is America or American companies Anto and others they're the ones who do all this okay so this conspiracy theories that we hear about the sugar Lobby controlling marketing narratives and uh say the meat industry controlling narratives or you know things like this all this could be very true okay and all this actually does happen all right it could be happening no I have no idea whether they are actually modifying all this okay but there there are obviously wasted interest in controlling a market okay whether it is meat or food or minerals I don't know whether I should ask you the next


I don't know whether I should ask you the next question that I actually want to ask you it's about Ibrahim would you like to speak about this topic he went away and got settled in Pakistan it's that all I know is that his daughter married and he's living there he's making money they don't want to who's going to touch him because he's protected by the isi and the pakistanis oh yes do you believe that's what we believe that he is protected okay why is he protected okay random a favor Finance them Finance Finance them we did Bombay 1993 okay and he probably helping them with with money to create more trouble I don't like asking you this question but in 1993 was there any intel that something like this would happen I don't think so no hello there was probably straight information but not the magnitude or nothing and you know when these major things happen a whole lot of people are involved not just intelligence local security what were they doing where did all these RDX come from you mean the


where did all these RDX come from you mean the police force of Mumbai the police force yeah yeah somebody must be knowing about it somebody must be the local uh and again money probably put them on the other side yeah the dark side man okay the general narrative about PM Modi and this government is that it does have sort of a tiger's branding on the world stage people don't mess with India anymore we are also in a phase where India feels safer than it's ever been yeah okay and I want to clarify that I'm deeply Centrist I'm not on either side and I think as a media professional it is ethically correct to be Centrist I'm not batting for uh Modi ji's government or anything like that but I do wish to ask you as the former rnaw Chief what has gone right uh in the last 10 years or so why are we seeing us safe for India I think you're safe you're seeing a safer India for one or two three reasons one is that the


for one or two three reasons one is that the car you you see visibly that the government is trying to deliver on some of the promises okay okay it has delivered promises for the Common Man okay I mean we are the largest biggest uh transactors of phone pick kind of money in the world the French and the Germans don't have it we have it so that is access to money access to the bank access to subsidies you know these common facilities are you and I don't understand that they exist that they matter but the woman who has to go and pick up twigs and light a fire and when she gets a gasket July it's a lot of difference it's a lot of time save a lot of effort saved and held there so that makes a lot of difference to toilets make a difference to your dignity so when you help a sizable chunk of your population you're delivering and that is important okay and then he has had a reach out to the rest of the world May our


reach out to the rest of the world May our relations with the West Asian Nations have never been better why because he's reached out and told them what what it's all about and what we can do together so many of these foreign foreign countries their leaders come and say that we are the country to watch not everything is right I'm also with you that not everything is right it can't be but it's definitely better and you know things like balakot the attack the counter attack that we did after bullwama was a message it wasn't to be a battle strike that you destroyed their airport or whatever it's a message that if you do this we will do this to you and we'll do it again and it did make a difference it has made a difference the tune has been different since then we did this so there is a country who is willing to now stand up that's why people think twice authorized before yeah you know next time might be bigger hmm okay and so and like what Mumbai 2008


hmm okay and so and like what Mumbai 2008 happened it was terrible but we did nothing oh that's the difference what do you give you self-pride it give you confidence and that's that's an important thing and then that gives an impression outside also then why would somebody else come and look after you what do you think Modi ji would have done if he would have been the PM then the time of the 2008 attacks they would have been there would have been a reaction there would have been reaction there doesn't have to be tomorrow it doesn't have to be day after it has to be in your time but the message would have gone ideally if you have a three-day uh attack going on the world would have actually forgiven you if you had done it the second day get me they would have said well do you asked for it I had the honor of speaking with IPS shivanandan on the show he spoke about how post the 2008 attacks they actually fixed the security much better of Mumbai


attacks they actually fixed the security much better of Mumbai which is why Mumbai feels safer before I asked you this previous question about why we have this Tiger's branding on a world stage I would assume that your answer would be that the Modi government has fueled the intelligence agencies as well as the Indian military to be more equipped uh security WISE research-wise Technology wise that's how we're safer but you're saying it's probably a combination of that as well as the overall one without the other all right so it's both oh it has to be both because you can't just beef up your security apparatus and not bother about the people that you're supposed to protect okay uh you said you're a cricket fan right yeah one as well um today Cricket is like very deeply data oriented I know this because I have a few friends from good cricketing circles I've been told that before every match there are captains Road Sharma being one where they will plan almost every over of the match depending


they will plan almost every over of the match depending on who the batter is especially if they want to take someone's Wicket and all this is data back okay so that's why you have data unless in IPL teams you have probably a bowling codes yes right it's called technology now if this would have been a metaphor for your world I believe that intelligence agencies are the data analysts and the coaches and then the military and the government are batsman and your bonus yeah am I right something like that yeah it would mean also that you would then be able to analyze your mistakes your failures better with the data that you've got you collected and improve on the system as you go on right otherwise it used to be by word of mouth and it's over right um what's it like working with the military as sort of a partner agency the Indian military I've gotten to again had the honor to get to know them through the show and all of them are tigers what's it like working with


of them are tigers what's it like working with them when you're talking to the military generals uh uh would you like to share anything about your experience of working with them would you like to speak on behalf of the Indian military yeah I have the point is that I've always had very good relations with the Armed Forces wherever I was posted and there was never any uh personal problem there are they are professional requirements at times which is different I think we are we get along we still do get along professionally get along very well and there is an increasing realization that you cannot do without one or the other right you have to it's it's a it's a joint effort but there have been differences of opinion yeah there have always been different I can't imagine a situation where there would be a difference of opinion because you're basically the coach telling the bowler to bowl at a certain level no and you do had difference of Assessments you know you can assess the situation


Assessments you know you can assess the situation differently and they can assess the same information differently all right and they are the users we are not we are the suppliers of information okay so we cannot dictate to them because you've got to use it only the way I tell you to use them okay so they will use it the way they think it is useful or not useful do you want to talk about the kargil war maybe maybe I just want to ask you the human aspect of it being what you were in rnaw what were you going through when the war was going on on a mental level or on an emotional level no it was it was fearful it was fearful that they had reached so high and then they were we were caught unawares really and whether we're going to get it back particularly when the pakistanis we could hear saying by July it will be over will be hours and so but then there was this underlying uh belief it will cost us more it cost


underlying uh belief it will cost us more it cost us more but we will get there in the end which we did I think we've almost reached the end of this episode so is there anything you'd like to cover that we've not covered I just thought you know we're talking about [Music] um I think without the family and how it sort of I think one important factor that I should have mentioned is that in your life one of the best things you have is your friends and if you're lucky you have good friends I will stand by you throughout and I was very lucky just wanted to say that as part of the thing you know nothing like a good friend everyone needs a bro at some point uh especially if you're constantly made to take yourself too seriously which people in your position are so you need someone to just make fun of you yeah yeah of course all right yeah he pulled you down a peg or two yeah that's it that's it thank you we have planned uh for today before we


thank you we have planned uh for today before we let you leave uh there's a gift on behalf of Team TRS and team rgo I've injured my shoulder so I won't be able to give it to you I've got some sort of tendonitis situation in my shoulder it's probably because of weight training so my producer shrutesh will hand it to you sir uh it's on behalf of Team RG on team TRS it's got a bunch of goodies it's a little uh if you want you can just like keep it here which I just want you to know that it's got a lot of love back then as well no no no no no no whatever you give is wonderful yeah it's it's gone yeah yeah don't worry about it no no no yeah so it's got a bunch of goodies uh what I will say is that it's also got a lot of love back too it's not every day that we get to speak to someone of your caliber someone who's done work I'm sure


of your caliber someone who's done work I'm sure you do I'm not sure you're doing something different like military podcast rnaw podcasts are uh kind of the honor of our world because we do get to talk to cricketers and actors and they're fantastic business people have taught us a lot you guys are living on a slightly different realm According To Me based on all the conversations I've had and you know especially with rnaw officers I think more often than not y'all don't get saluted enough which is why I'll salute you uh so thank you for everything you've done thank you thank you for having me like lots of respect and uh seriously there's a whole aspect of your life which maybe even your wife doesn't know and only you know so more than anything I salute you from the bottom of my heart for all that stuff that you're keeping secret thank you and uh thank you it's been great being here and I've watched your shows earlier good for us so it's been wonderful


earlier good for us so it's been wonderful being here to talk to you all I can offer you is a visit to Bangalore and you can stay there uh just this opportunity to speak to someone like yourself for this long this is the biggest gift you can ever give me so uh thank you sir thank you for this conversation thank you for the views that this conversation will get us uh I am a capitalist at the end of the day but genuinely meant a lot so and I'm hoping to speak to you again thank you my pleasure thank you sir thanks a lot that was the episode for today as you can tell it wasn't the simplest episode for me because that's the training of a top quality rnaw officer tell me what else I could have asked him I honestly want to know your perspective I've built this podcast along with you guys and I'd like to know what else we can do in episodes like this which are sort of so difficult for me to Traverse


are sort of so difficult for me to Traverse through as a podcaster how do you rate my performance in this one please tell me in the comment section down below please keep listening in the TRS follow us on Spotify every episode's available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available any else in the world this book has been started by rgo make sure you download the rgo app right now to look as stylish as fashion bhaiya we'll be back very soon we'll be achieving it in style once again very soon agio presents the runway show is going to be back keep supporting keep loving keep learning and keep staying curious [Music] thank you